Rounds 11 & 12 Suzuka East

[BarbecuePete]

An incident packed Sprint race saw Maxster Smiffy and Bazza fall to the back, Fluff and Chop had a race long battle for the last podium spot and I tried in vain to catch up to Spiny putting in fastest laps until I messed up the last corner and Spiny put in a flier on the last lap to claim the win and the fastest lap..

The feature race saw Bazza running first for about half the race but was eventually passed by Spiny and Maxster, I had a poor start to the race and also got tapped from behind by Chop in the first corner a few laps in but I think there was a bit of lag involved as well as I got no damage but Chop span off into the dirt and had damaged bumpers and sides 

I managed to put in some good laps over rest of the race and just about caught up to the back of Fluff in 4th who was also catching Bazza but we didn't have enough laps to get past, Smiffy had been running high up early on but had caught the wall on the last corner and fell back to 6th...

Sprint Race                                             

1st	Spiny
2nd	BarbecuePete
3rd	Chop
4th	Fluff
5th	Maxster
6th	Smiffy
7th	Bazza

Fastest Lap - Spiny

Feature Race

1st	Spiny
2nd	Maxster
3rd	Bazza
4th	Fluff
5th	BarbecuePete
6th	Smiffy
7th	Chop

Fastest Lap - Maxster

[Smiffy46]

That F***ing Wall NeverMind Thats Racing!

[fndrbndr]

I lagged out.  And I'd fought my way back into podium contention, too.  Oh well..c'est la vie, right?

[Spiny Anteater]

I lagged out.  And I'd fought my way back into podium contention, too.  Oh well..c'est la vie, right?

Electrical failure - typical of French cars It got me last week even before the race started...

As for the race:

As Pete said the first one was pretty incident packed. That was mainly as a result of the lack of line which caused difficulties for everyone except Fluffster and Pete. I was lucky in this one to be starting on the front row, and was able to stay clean through the first corner as I generally ignore the line there anyway. (With the last corner, it took me 3 laps before I got the braking point right, but fortunately I avoided the wall). Behind me it seemed that carnage ensued, especially at that last corner. By the end of the 10 lap race, only 4 of us were on the same lap which gives an indication of how much damage was seen.

For the second race the racing line was back on which helped everyone immeasurably (the fastest lap of the race was 0.7 seconds faster in this one!). For me it was a challenge to work my way as far through the field as I could - especially as my in-traffic skills are often lacking Fortunately, this time everyone except bazza kindly ran wide at the last corner as I closed up on them which helped a lot in progressing through the field. Bazza wasn't so accomodating , but I suspect he was in an auto as I gained a lot in the last 1/4 of the straight (seemed like he went into 6th while I stayed in 5th gear) and, after an aborted effort on one lap I was able to make the pass the next. The last 9 laps I just tried to keep clean as I could see Maxster closing in on me all the way - the gap was about 30m at the end, but if it had been 30 laps I'm not sure if I could have held on for the win. I'm not sure how everyoen else was doing as the adrenaline was pumping then seeing Maxster close the gap - I'd say that is probably up there with the MV races for excitement.

[BarbecuePete]

As Pete said the first one was pretty incident packed. That was mainly as a result of the lack of line which caused difficulties for everyone except Fluffster and Pete.

Im gonna put this out there now to judge opinion....

For next season I am very tempted to have the line switched off for all races... I think the Enduro we did at MVS proved that the braking line is too big an advantage in being able to run consistantly over a long race...

I used to race with the braking line on myself so I know how easy it makes finding the braking points for corners... On the flipside though if you are in a group of traffic you can't even see the line and thats usually when someone ends up getting rear ended... 

I got nothing against people using the line and other assists in open rooms (Hell I even turn all but Auto and STM on when I get my missile charger out) but as this is a compotition and meant be as close to the RL championship as possible (Incidents included) a bright red line telling you where to brake goes against that... So does ABS really but thats the hardest one to get used to going without if your used to just stamping on the brakes...

Also with the damage being on, you may fail to finish one race but your rival may also not finish a race later on in the season, its the overall points that are important... even Lewis Hamilton didn't finish every race in the F1 this season but he still won the championship...

There are also some other changes I want to make too such as the points system and room setup but i'll post up more about those after the end of this season...

[fndrbndr]

I'm getting from the context of Spiny's post that the line actually reduces the number of incidents.  The braking points also change when you're following someone, as a function of both downforce (if aero is involved) and having to avoid hitting the other guy.  Also, one of the main "policies" on this site is that we don't make rules about assists.  If you want to run no assists, then great.  It actually does, for the most part, make you faster (I've improved since ditching ABS and TCS, and am starting to learn to drive missiles assist-free, which is not my strong suit).  However, the line adds consistency and decreases the number of incidents.  Those seem like good things to me.  I use the line, but use it as just another point on the track. 

TRC GeorgiaDawg said it better than I can.  I don't think that you're berating anyone for using the line, which was the context of his statements below, so ignore the tone, but the content is dead on:

Problem is, the line that is shown is not fast, and if you're following the color changes for your braking points you're even slower.  The reality is, the line is nothing more than another reference point on the track that is helpful in many instances.

First one, is if you're racing in first person.  In that view close racing becomes stupidly hard because of it because if you're closely following someone the entirety of your screen is taken up by the lead cars rear bumper.  In most cases, the only thing you have to tell you where you are in a corner is the line.  First person is by far the best and most realistic view this game offers, but it has problems due to the lowness of the camera angle. 

And for those of us still using a standard def TV, it is the only way to actually see the apex points of some of the corners.  I have a teammate who recently had to come back to the stone ages with me on regular def because his nice big HD TV broke on him.  He didn't use the breaking line while he had his HD, but told me that he now completely understood my point on this.  He mentioned in HD that he could see so much more.  Little spots on the track he used as braking points in HD, he couldn't even see in regular def. 

So, in the end, the line is really nothing more than another reference point on the track.  That's all it is, because once again, if you're actually following what that line tells you to do, you're going to be slow anyways. 

[BarbecuePete]

Yeah im not bashing anyone for using assists, this isn't Daught.net... lol

I don't have an issue with assists as such, maybe it is my switch to no assists that is clouding my view slightly... It wasn't an easy switch turning the line off, I spent quite a few races in last place as I tried to find out where my braking points were without just looking for a red line to appear...

I just feel that the the line may be too much of an assist in identical cars, especially when your as fast as Spiny. 

Because of course, He still beat me without the line.... 

I do agree with the reference point on std def telly though, I use a Std def myself and it is difficult to pick out markers for braking points... I still struggle for a braking point for the first turn at Mugello without the line on ... But it just puts me off now if I turn it back on...

Don't worry though, the line will be on for all rooms this season... that isn't changing...

[fndrbndr]

I guess my view is that if I'm getting tapped in the rear when I'm braking late to try to prevent that very issue, and taking a better line as evidenced by my higher speed on the straights in an identical car, I don't see the benefit of taking away a guildeline that encourages people to brake early.

The line is actually the only assist I run, and if I get an HDTV, I'll probably see whether I can run without it after reading Dawg's comments.  While I have no issue with locking off TCS, some might have issue with that if the next series features high-powered cars.  It's not the advantage that it is in the missiles.

Just to be clear, though, I know your comments weren't of the "I'm a real man because I run x vs. y" nature. 

[Spiny Anteater]

As someone else who runs without the line (and ABS, but that's due a knackered finger more than anything) I agree that it does lead to consistency. To be honest, the main reason I use it is because I do tend to jump around quite a bit and the line provides a useful reference point if you go (as I have many nights recently) from R3 to B Class in one go. That reminder that you need to apply the brakes a bit earlier than you were doing in your previous run has saved many people from having an Anteater smashing into the back of them

One of the things I'm aiming to do come FM3 is to turn off the line. To be honest, apart from the adaption between classes (which I think is learnable), the main thing keeping it on for me is that the random car thing is basically a big comparison. Switching off one of the parameters part way through would rather wreck that, hence the wait until FM3. ABS though will stay on until when/if I get a wheel.

Even then, I suspect that there wouldn't have been the carnage in the first race that there was if we'd been prepared (and full credit to everyone for sticking with it even if they were damaged). Certainly by the end of the 10 lap race I was back to hitting my marks, even if I was a bit more nervous at that last corner. So, if you choose to run the next championship with the line turned off I'll have no complaints.

(Re-reading that last paragraph it reads like I'm having a go - I'm not, just saying that one of the lessons to learn is that if there are any settings for a championship it would be better if they were announced pre-season).

Regarding the MVS enduro, I would say that that track, Suzuka East and Road Atlanta Short are probably the easiest lines to switch off the line due to the sheer inaccuracy in most places. You just have to remember in the first corner to look for track-side markers rather than a big red triangle

[BarbecuePete]

Yeah I know no ones having a go Spiny... As I said this isn't daught net.... lol

I do agree about when switching classes as well... Being so used to running B-Class at the moment I will usually sail off the track at one corner or another if I go up to say S-class because I went and used my B-class braking point... lol

Of course if there are any restrictions such as this season with TCS and STM being locked off... They will of course be announced before the championship begins... The line being off for the first race this time was my mistake... 

Also I think I have a similar issue as you Fndr, without the line I tend to brake earlier as I have no easy reference point of speed into the corner... which sometimes ends up with the guy using the line behind going in the back of me as he braked later because he was waiting for the line to appear... Oh how many times have I heard a random person say "I couldn't see the line because your car was in the way" 

Anyway it doesn't really matter if you use assists or not really... It is just a game.. 

(did I just say that    )

[Razza999]

I've only ever once removed the braking indicator and i ended up missing the corner completely on the first lap, it seems i'm overly dependeant onto it, but sometimes the brake indicator is wrong a good example is Sebring which we raced its the second corner the braking indicator is way too small and u just run wide even with a heavy braking set-up. On GT2, 3 and 4 i never used any braking indicators and i used to pick out markers on the track to perfect my line, but i try to do it on this but forza has way more variables when it comes to braking and its something i'm gunna have to do through the out season if you are going to run no brake indicator next season. But i'll end with my 1 major thought that there will be huge accidents on every first corner if the brake indicators are turned off.

Btw loving this season!