Saturday Post-Clio Enduro (with commentary)

[fndrbndr]

Sunset is a possibility, especially since there really is an enduro at Daytona.   

I think our original thought was to open with a 12 Hours of Sebring and Close with a similar Daytona event.

[Spiny Anteater]

If I'm honest, I still prefer the idea of locked builds, but the compound/rim change idea shoudl be workable.

And why do I prefer the locked build idea? Well, I look on it as a car being built to spec. To use the BTCC as an example: SEAT ran a diesel Leon this year which gave them a massive advantage on the straights due to the extra torque. But the weight of that big lump in the front end gave them a serious disadvantage on the tracks which required better handling. They took the view that the extra power was worth the negatives. If we could change the build it would be a bit like SEAT only bringing out the diesel for the fast tracks, and then reverting to the petrol version for the twisty ones. However, even with the same build, the teams still worked on the cars throughout the year (OK there will be some parts honed to perfection through the year, but the improvements will be much smaller than those available in Forza). But, the biggest changes between tracks were still down to tuning, and I feel this is what we seem to be aiming at with this series.

[fndrbndr]

Put in that context, I don't have a huge issue with it, but on this side of the pond, NASCAR was running a different car for every track until the Car of Tomorrow came about.  I may be betraying my own ignorance of a national pastime here, but I would imagine that the differences between a car for Daytona and Bristol are much less than those between a car for Road America and Tsukuba.

I think that the tire/rim exchange idea still allows people to make a decision with equipment for the races, but does so without allowing truly different cars.  I'll be headed home shortly, and I'll work on this a bit and see what I come up with.

[bimmerlovere39]

If I'm honest, I still prefer the idea of locked builds, but the compound/rim change idea shoudl be workable.

And why do I prefer the locked build idea? Well, I look on it as a car being built to spec. To use the BTCC as an example: SEAT ran a diesel Leon this year which gave them a massive advantage on the straights due to the extra torque. But the weight of that big lump in the front end gave them a serious disadvantage on the tracks which required better handling. They took the view that the extra power was worth the negatives. If we could change the build it would be a bit like SEAT only bringing out the diesel for the fast tracks, and then reverting to the petrol version for the twisty ones. However, even with the same build, the teams still worked on the cars throughout the year (OK there will be some parts honed to perfection through the year, but the improvements will be much smaller than those available in Forza). But, the biggest changes between tracks were still down to tuning, and I feel this is what we seem to be aiming at with this series.

Once again, Spiny comes in and says my ideas better than I do 

[fndrbndr]

OK, so I put the lightest Enkeis on and downgraded the compound to make up the difference.  It's a little bit slower (only one lap below 38 seconds, and that was a 37.994), but left front was just turning yellow at lap 37, and I set my top lap of the session at 34.  My one worry was that if the light rims made up for the lack of grip, we'd have cars that were just as fast as the top-compound cars, but could hold that pace for longer.  It doesn't seem that this is the case.  My guess at this point is that open compound/rim on fixed builds should be at least acceptable. Of course, we'll be running softer compounds in the 10+25 weeks...

[BarbecuePete]

I think the best way to think of the tyres in this case rather than brands is to just think of them as compounds going from Super Soft (Avons) to Super Hard (Firestones)

I think the PI adjusts by around 10 (?) from softest to hardest, on the same size and weight rim... Tyre width causes a bigger jump in PI, I think its in the range of 5-15 Pi for each increase / decrease in width...

I guess the best idea is to initially build up a car with mid weight rims and mid tyres to allow full adjustability and keep at 850pi...

No point building an A850 car with the widest, lightest rims and sticky tyres as then you can only go down in PI within these rules...

[fndrbndr]

Good point, Pete.  And yes, going from softest compound to hardest is 11 PI points.  Going from stock rims to Enkeis is in the same ballpark, I think 14 on Goodyears but 10 on the harder tires (I think I went up one compound for this test to keep the PI the same).  I ran my middle-of-the-road build online yesterday to good effect.  The soft compound really is the best for sprinters, though.

[Spiny Anteater]

Once again, Spiny comes in and says my ideas better than I do 

I try! 

On Pete's idea of compound, I think it's a good point, and perfectly valid. I'm glad to see there is a difference in performance between the tyres which isn't completely balanced out with the weight of the lighter rims too. Although I hadn't said it, i think at the back of my mind my concern was that the obvious strategy would have been to go with the light rims/enduring compound. Since that isn't the case, I think the rim/compound change is valid as it does allow another piece of strategy to come into the equation.

And for a real-life equivalent, look no further than F1. They have 4 compounds (in 2008 at least) and Bridgestone brought 2 to each race. This is a similar concept, only we have more compounds to choose from and can only bring 1 to each meeting.

[fndrbndr]

Yeah, the more I mess with it, the more I think the rims/compounds idea is the way to go. 

As a side note, I also liked the fact that 75 laps meant running soft compounds was a meaningful sacrifice.  In 50 laps at MVS, I was able to pit about lap 27 or so with no meaningful adverse effects.  I really think that in choosing locations and lengths for enduros, this should be taken into account.

[Drift2XL]

I want to share with you last night's online racing. Detrick invited me and Pete to some online fun. I pull another Dirft and smash D in the rear first corner, first brake zone. After a quick pep talk between races, I fanally settled down. Three, four, five races go by, staying clean, at least in contact to others.

Then the tracks start to shift to the grippier tracks. MV rev, I take out the "fill name here " Terrors out. Starting with the S13. Dominate is the word as even the missle car couldn't keep up. But Detrick got smashed on the start by a freeroaming terrorist.

Next in RA short. So I'm looking over the cars and the RX7 catches my eye. So a quick tune up and its on. I'm racing 3 AWD's and Detrick in a 914/6. And I'm starting in the back.

After some first lap kink contact ahead of me, I'm third. Pulling up to D in second I see him fall off the track on the uphill sweeper. The little FD just sticks to the inside holding it flat, no prob. Chasing down the final AWD was took two laps the close enough and pick the spot to pass. Same place as Detrick, I know the AWD will push out when is does I just stick it under him and cruise on to victory.

Final race was at Suzuka East and I stood pat on the car choice. While everyone else pulled out semi power cars. I saw two ACR Vipers and a S281E and a Mustang GT. My FD is the only grip car out there.

Hoping for a quick start and hold the lead, my hopes were dashed as I started in the back, again. Cheezing my way through the first turn complex, I get back on it to start to reel them in in the twisties. Just as I'm entering the esses contact ahead sends two spinning, right across my nose. I brake and avoid damage, how, IDK, good brakes. Literally, I have a Viper slide backwards in front of me about three or four feet away.

Once I got the heart beating again, its time to start chaseing down the leaders. Third place slides wide on exit of turn one on lap 3. Lap 4 sees the second place car slide wide on the short cut back to the front stretch.

Now Detrick is leading in another ACR. And the first turn incident was behind him. So clean track for all that time. Start of lap five sees me about 3.7 secs behind. Start of lap 6 sees it cut to 2.2, and I can see Detrick coming off the final turn. The final lap, I see some rooster tails on the exit of turn one. I'm smelling blood, at least for the first half of the lap. I've now cut it down to around .5 secs. enough to see him, but not much chance of making a move.

Well, I didn't have to make a move D did it for me as he slid off wide on the shortcut. I cruise right on through to take the lead. Until I hit the gas a bit too early and step the rear out a bit, post exit. But the fear took over and started the pedaling, which caused me to slide off for a very short time. But it broke my momentum out of the turn. Now full panic has set in as I remember that D's in the Viper. And frantic yells for the 20B to rev fall on deaf ears as Detrick passes me to win about ten feet from the finish line.

On exiting the races I say "Damn gutless rotary". And the whole room busts out laughing. All in all, I got two wins and some more podiums. Good night for the "Adult" Terrors, or how about the Big Boy's Toy's. Just throwing a couple of names out there.

[fndrbndr]

Sounds like a good night.  What were the specs?

[BarbecuePete]

When I joined we were just running open B-class, I had some really good races with Detrick sitting right on my rear bumper for 5 laps of Motegi and then again at Mugello a little later... I managed to hold on at Motegi in my Lexus SC430 against his 70's Challanger despite me having a couple of slight lockups under braking. At Mugello though after being chased for 4 laps again I just ran onto the outside kerb exiting turn 3 on the last and Detrick was able to get past and take the victory in our Mini vs Focus battle.

It was good clean racing... and Im sure if Detrick had got past me sooner he would have just disapeared off into the distance... lol

[fndrbndr]

I think I have video of Detrick and me going side-by-side through about a lap of Tsukuba somewhere.  He's not on here a lot thesedays, but he's a lot of fun to race with, and meticulously clean.

[fndrbndr]

As for the name, for now I'm calling it the GT400, but that's a bit of a placeholder. 

[Spiny Anteater]

Sounds like you had fun last night. I'm hoping that it's just that the room had filled by the time I responded to Pete's invites - otherwise I have some issues connecting to someone in that room