Saturday Post-Clio Enduro (with commentary)

[fndrbndr]

Just a tip....S15 can.  Drift's running one right now.

[fndrbndr]

Quick heads-up...I skipped the Clio race today, and will be running tomorrow.  It's 3:50 eastern now.  invites are going out ina minute or two.

Also, Open, go ahead and bring your Exige...I'm running under 38 consistently and turned in a 38.7xx during my test run.  I'm not worried about it being too much car.

[fndrbndr]

Guys, that was fun.  Thanks for running it!  Hope everyone had a good time.  I'll try to get come pics and a writeup later, unless someone else gets to it first.

[Open2nd]

Indeed, that was a fun race.  Spiny and fndr were too consistent for me to contend with after too long, and an off-track excursion here and there sealed the deal for me.  Pete had me worried more than a few times though throughout the remainder of the race, as he and I kind of yo-yo'd for position..  Sadly, I didn't save the replay, so no pictures.  I look forward to running this series with you fellas though, as I had a blast!

[Spiny Anteater]

I enjoyed it - a good race from all of you. I've only run a couple of online enduros until this week, and the standard procedure seems to have been that the cars very quickly spread out according to their potential lap time. That didn't happen here - we did spread out after about 20 laps or so, but the fastest laps were very close, all within 0.7 seconds and if you discount bimmer's evil handling E30 then the spread was 37.7 so 38.0 seconds.

As Open said, it was consistency which sealed the results this time rather than car speed (I like that, as it's more like a real enduro). I was 4th ranked on fastest laps, but the Spirra is a very easy car to drive consistently, and it was that which sent me through to the win. Fender was close for most of the first stint, but as the pit stop window approached his tyres started going off before mine and that was what allowed me to get a nice gap estabished.

(Incidentally, I said in the race I was running Avons. Rechecking the build here shows I was actually on Kumhos, so I think that's why I got a slightly longer run than fndr before the tyres went).

[bimmerlovere39]

Sorry about that, guys    I know the E30 had more in it, and it really doesn't handle THAT badly - it just became very ancy after I got rear ended & lost a noticable amount of rear downforce.  Next time I hope to be right up there with you 

[BarbecuePete]

Yeah that was some good racing, I had a good battle with Open over 3rd and 4th. I thought I had it sewn up when I passed Open after he'd had an off at the hairpin but I also went an ran wide in turns 2 / 3 a couple of times and Open had put in some good laps so he was back past me...

I'd like to do another enduro sometime... and from the quick run we had in the Clio's at Sebring Short last night, I think low powered grip build cars on a power track could be worth a go...

[fndrbndr]

grip cars on power tracks are a lot of fun.

[Drift2XL]

Yeah sorry about that Bimmer. 

I could roll through the hairpin a bit faster than you I believe and came up a little too close. I really hate that for you. I know it was faster than that. Once that rear aero gets damaged, its a handfull. Good job on finishing it. I wouldn't have blamed you if you dropped the race.

Just me not knowing where a good passing zone is. Now that I think about it, its one wide coming out of the hairpin.

Still a good race.
Despite damage 60% front damage. I could still keep with Spiny for about five or ten laps once he lapped me. So I think the Esprit is good enough. After fndr left warm ups, I ran a couple with Open and got a 37.9 on a track that I haven't spent that much time on. But I probably will still look for a lighter weight car.

[fndrbndr]

Yeah, Spiny and I are just on opposite ends of the 2,000-lb mark, so I'm guessing this indicates that lightweight cars are preferred here, or at least that the short ribbon favors them more than the full ribbon does.  Since this was partly an excuse to run a spec, and partly to test the spec for a potential series, I have a few thoughts, and I want feedback on these.  Even if you're not planning on running the next series, an extra set of eyes on the problems is always a good thing.

1.  Tires may be track-specific.  Bimmer and I discussed the possibility of a multi-format season, "10+25" weekends like the Clios run, and maybe opening and closing the season with mega-enduros of some sort, 75 laps on a longer ribbon or something to mimick the "12 hours of ________" format that's so popular in endurance racing.  (Man, I wish forza had the option of time limit races!)  I bring this up because my main gripe with fixing builds at week 1 is that it cuts out some of the development from week to week, something that can happen in professional racing.  However, Bimmer's fear of everyone having a 400hp non-aero car and a 300-hp, 2,000 lb grip monster are well-founded.  In fact, I had built up a 400-hp car before he even mentioned it. lol.  However, I think the tire issue offers a solution: we fix builds EXCEPT for compounds and rims.  Right now, for example, I'm running Max-width goodyear slicks on stock (or possibly very heavy Brabus) rims.  Under this rule, I can run that setup for the 10+25 at Laguna in week 3, and then switch up to Pirellis on Enkeis in week 4 for the Petit LeMans at Road Atlanta.  I think this is a logical middle ground between locking everything in in week 1 and everyone building and testing a different car every week.

2.  Limited damage was a big plus.  I'm not sure if I've posted this publicly yet, but I think full damage is one of the things that hurts the Clio Cup.  Yes, it's realistic, and that has its own charm, but there's something to be said for keeping the racing close and competitive, and giving people the opportunity to recover from mistakes.  If that exact same race had been run with full damage, the day would have been a lot less fun for everyone not named Spiny.  There was still some damage involved, and it was definitely enough to provide a penalty for anyone who runs off, but it kept everyone at least somewhat involved in the race. 

3.  As far as the spec as a whole, I think the jury is still out.  This race favored those with the most time invested in their cars and those with lightweight cars.  If you'd asked me before the race what would have happened, I might have predicted that.  We got spread out a little more than I would have liked, but thinking back to the MV enduro last year, the same thing happened that time.  I'd really like to run this spec (if not these exact cars) on another track and see what happens.  There were a lot of incidents, but Suzuka East seemed to breed some pretty close racing in the clios.  It's probably about 50 seconds per lap in these cars.  I can run an enduro tonight if anyone's interested (wife's out of town)

[bimmerlovere39]

I can't commit to any enduros this week, but this weekend or the next two weeks I can for sure    I really would like to run these cars some more - I think that Maple is not ideal for close racing, truth be told,as evidenced by the fact that we would seem to stretch out but then hold distance.  It might be something similar to what has traditionally been an F1 bugaboo - you can be faster, but then you slip into the draft and lose your downforce, and you are no longer fast enough to pass, especially on a track like Maple where laps can be very dependent on downforce - just ask me in the E30! 

1) I would say that the ability to change tires and wheels works.  There's also the possibility to have a mid-season rehomologation, where we can change our builds.  This would only work if the season was "symmetrical" between the first and second halves.  I'd say this should only be implemented if there is resistance to the just tires & wheels suggestion.

2) Limited damage is nice, although I think I can attest that even limited is enough to really screw you over.  While, in an ideal, lag-free world, I would whole-heartedly support Collisions On, Sim Damage racing.  Unfortunately, phones ring, internet lags, and, in general, strange stuff happens.  Collisions on doesn't work, but sim damage can.  However, I think I am going to have to agree with you here.  Especially if we run races on the longer tracks.  Nothing worse than blowing an engine on the Karussell on the 'Ring.

3) I think the spec works.  I think the major problem this time was the track, as I have mentioned earlier.  We should run some additional races on other tracks to see how the spec really seems to work. 

[Open2nd]

Leave it to me to run against the grain.  Personally, I think compound selection should be locked off the bat with a dedicated tire sponsor agreement.  I also think aero should be locked from the start.  Now hear me out.  Instead of switching manufacturers every other week, why not have the option of changing tire width instead of manufacturer, and then add/remove power/weight to make the P.I.  This would in turn, simulate real world development.  Just a suggestion, as either way would work, I just prefer the more realistic route..

As for the spec itself, I think it works out pretty well.  The game does well enough at limiting disparity on its own.  I think the biggest issue in the race at MV, as I've said before, was (in)consistency.  That is going to be key at any event, no matter what rules are in place.  I'm sure you guys see it in the Clio Cup as well.  Of course the guy with the least seat-time is going to be one of the more inconsistent on the track, unless he's just a beast.

When it comes to the damage aspect, again I think the rules we ran under the other day worked out fairly well.  I think collisions should be set to on, with damage set at limited.  This encourages everyone to keep it clean, though we tend to race cleanly anyways. 

Lastly, I love the idea of opening and closing with longer events.

Either way the rules fall into place, I can't wait to run this.

[Snyder005]

I'd be interested in running an enduro tonight fndr.  Missed the MVS one cuz i was at Long Island running the hardest Cross Country Cross I have ever encountered in the State Meet. 

[fndrbndr]

Open,
Thanks for the suggestion.  My only issue with the locked compound idea is whether it will work in the game mechanically.  An increase or decrease in width usually means an increase/decrease of several points of PI.  Switching everything out and just having everyone run Michelin may mean bigger increases/decreases in performance.  I could have my max-width car with full aero at 308 (I'm running 303 with Goodyears IIRC) and my minimum width car with more weight running 350, if I'm understanding your suggestion correctly.  I'll mess with this and see whether it will work in practice.  If it does, I'm not opposed to it, and in fact like it conceptually, but I don't know how those who favor more similar builds will feel about it.

Tonight, how about running a 75-lapper at Suzuka East?  It seemed to keep things pretty close in the Clios.  I've started a signup thread if anyone's interested.  If there aren't a lot of participants, I'll just run it in exhibition, so that we have traffic.

[BarbecuePete]

One reason why the Clio's were able to run so closely with each other at Suzuka East is the lack of front aero... I feel that with these cars here as with at MVS if you catch someone in the Esses you will lose downforce and probably run off track...

Also the only place really to try and pass is if you get a better run out of the last corner and can out drag your rival before the first corner... even then side by side usually ends in tears..

How about Sunset Infield for the enduro, power limit stops anyone bringing a gun to a knfe fight and the the aero won't play as big a role in following and trying to pass someone... and there are very good passing zones into the two hairpins...