Hop's FM2 Theories - Discussion

[Hoplee]

I created this topic as a place for my theories regarding Forza Motorsport 2. Opinions of these ideas are welcome and invited, but please include some details with any posted flame, whether said details are empirical or 'other'

Theory 8-14-08-1130 "Limitation of Vehicle Movement in FM2"
Description and Supporting Information
1) The vehicles in FM2 are prevented from ever flipping over by the game physics. The reasons for this have nothing to do with the accuracy/precision of the simulated physics, and everything to do with perceived legal liability by the RL Auto Manufacturers. No auto manufacturer wants to see their car end up shiny side down, and it's a big enough concern that major changes to the simulated physics were required to prevent such an occurence.

2) Cars that are heaviest at their front will nose over while air-borne, but only to a certain extent. For cars that are heaviest at the rear, the opposite is true, and it's therefore impossible to turn a back-flip, even though it's frighteningly plausible in today's RL racing environment. "Wheelie Cars" may be the best way to determine the maximum pitch ±, front to rear, allowed by FM2 game physics, but the most popular option, the Porsche 911, has it's ultimate pitch angle limited by rear bumper interference with the ground.

3) The artificial limitation of vehicle movement, side-to-side, has an undefined effect on vehicle cornering. In RL, it is feasible to cause a car to flip onto it's roof by simply encountering a small obstacle during a high-performance cornering maneuver. This type of failure mode may also be encountered due to catastrophic failure of the suspension or even tires. However, it is impossible to cause a vehicle to exhibit this behavior in-game, because FM2 somehow limits this type of movement to some degree.

Hypotheses
A) FM2's limitation of vehicle movement affects the optimal settings for race level platforms by rewarding some combinations that in RL would result in dangerous vehicle behavior.
B) Unrealistic and extreme ride height numbers together with damper and spring settings may allow the vehicle to use this artificial "FM2 Roll-Control", as a 'rail' to guide it through a corner more quickly than could be accomplished through any other method. NOTE: This hypothesis is directly concerned with the FM2 limitations to the roll-angle of the car side-to-side.

[BarbecuePete]

3) The artificial limitation of vehicle movement, side-to-side, has an undefined effect on vehicle cornering. In RL, it is feasible to cause a car to flip onto it's roof by simply encountering a small obstacle during a high-performance cornering maneuver. This type of failure mode may also be encountered due to catastrophic failure of the suspension or even tires. However, it is impossible to cause a vehicle to exhibit this behavior in-game, because FM2 somehow limits this type of movement to some degree.

Agreed, the problems with the Mercedes A-class when it was launched during the infamous 'Elk Test' are a prime example of a car rolling over during hard cornering... I suspect that if the game physics allowed that hitting an inside curb at high speed would cause most cars to go up on 2 wheels or possibly flip over, even at slow speeds in RL a car can flip over very easily... I have had personal experiance of a car very nearly flipping over after clipping a verge at just 30mph... Also see this link, the cars probably going 10 maybe 15mph...

http://www.reallybored.net/videos/How-to-Flip-Your-Car-With-10-Feet-of-Space

[Spiny Anteater]

Description and Supporting Information
1) The vehicles in FM2 are prevented from ever flipping over by the game physics. The reasons for this have nothing to do with the accuracy/precision of the simulated physics, and everything to do with perceived legal liability by the RL Auto Manufacturers. No auto manufacturer wants to see their car end up shiny side down, and it's a big enough concern that major changes to the simulated physics were required to prevent such an occurence.
I'm pretty certain the roll angle is set to 90 degrees - at Laguna in the early days of FM2 I managed to clip one of the AI as I went over the crest of the S_F straight in one of the RX-7's and flipped up in the air. Or at least partly flipped - the car quickly rolled onto it's door handles before sliding down the rest of the straight on its side. I believe that the limitations is not necessarily to the physics, more to the ultimate roll angle.



3) The artificial limitation of vehicle movement, side-to-side, has an undefined effect on vehicle cornering. In RL, it is feasible to cause a car to flip onto it's roof by simply encountering a small obstacle during a high-performance cornering maneuver. This type of failure mode may also be encountered due to catastrophic failure of the suspension or even tires. However, it is impossible to cause a vehicle to exhibit this behavior in-game, because FM2 somehow limits this type of movement to some degree.

Again I would disagree - clipping a kerb can cause a car to flip - within the prescribed limits at least



That was from hitting a kerb just wrong...

Hypotheses
A) FM2's limitation of vehicle movement affects the optimal settings for race level platforms by rewarding some combinations that in RL would result in dangerous vehicle behavior.
B) Unrealistic and extreme ride height numbers together with damper and spring settings may allow the vehicle to use this artificial "FM2 Roll-Control", as a 'rail' to guide it through a corner more quickly than could be accomplished through any other method. NOTE: This hypothesis is directly concerned with the FM2 limitations to the roll-angle of the car side-to-side.

Unfortunately, while I would question a couple of your lines of evidence, the hypotheses seem pretty good to me. That's the opposite of good science - I really should be trying to disprove them rather than the evidence. Guess that makes me a poor scientist

[Hoplee]

To my eye, it doesn't look like you're over 30 or 40 degrees side to side, which is about as much as I've seen. I wonder if the FM2RC dampens the roll effect or provides an invisible bump-stop of sorts. I also wonder whether it's relative to the surface directly under the vehicle, or a horizon defined by the entire racing environment(absolute or relative horizon).

Do you have a pic of a car showing more extreme (say, beyond 45 degrees) body-roll side to side in FM2?

[Drift2XL]

Here's your reason.

Would you like to roll over on lap 3 of a 10 lapper at the Ring? And be stuck upside down the entire time?

They want accessable gameplay. But enough to keep the hardcore staying here. There are going to be limits placed on the physics. And there will always be loopholes to exploit.

Basically, the system doesn't have engough power to produce a full sim game. And in any 100% training sim, be it racing or flight, there will always be points that have been overlooked, neglected due to unnessisary or ignorance to it.

Face it, if it was a pure sim, I doubt it would be as fun to the masses. Racing is seriously boring if your not winning or driving. The hurry up and wait for hours at a time grates on your nerves in the pits. You always see the glamour, not the boring stuff.

But then I would rather be racing over work any day.

[Hoplee]

I don't need reasons for the FM2 Roll-Control, causation isn't part of either hypotheses. The hypotheses are based upon the assumption that it does exist, not that it should or should not. I'm directly interested in the undefined effects any FM2RC may or may not have during vehicle cornering, and subsequently the way that those effects may or may not affect optimal tuning settings for various vehicles.

Make sense?

[Spiny Anteater]

To my eye, it doesn't look like you're over 30 or 40 degrees side to side, which is about as much as I've seen. I wonder if the FM2RC dampens the roll effect or provides an invisible bump-stop of sorts. I also wonder whether it's relative to the surface directly under the vehicle, or a horizon defined by the entire racing environment(absolute or relative horizon).

Do you have a pic of a car showing more extreme (say, beyond 45 degrees) body-roll side to side in FM2?

You're right Hop, this one isn't a huge roll - from the pic I would have said this one is 30 degrees at most but it is just from hitting a kerb wrong. Sadly, this is the largest roll I have a picture of - if I manage to get a higher roll (and remember to take a snap), I'll post it up. And I promise I won't try and do it by driving head-on into someone

However, I think we are disagreeing more about the niceties of the thing (i.e. maximum roll angle) rather than the existence of a limit.

I hadn't thought about whether the pitch is relative to the road/ground surface or to an artificial horizontal. however, I'm not sure there's any steep enough slopes in the game we could test it on unless someone can manage to tip a car in the Corkscrew, or possibly at Pflanzgarten.

[Hoplee]

You're right Spiny, semantics are the hangup when I think we're in agreement about the supporting evidence, anecdotal though it may be.

To test instead of debate, I took out an old friend from the back of the shop. It was a joke car sent to me by Whiteshark WAAAYYYY back in the day. It's also the only car more embarassing to drive than that monogrammed rainbow Shelby someone gave me once...

It's a U999 VW Beetle with AWD, 638 hp and only 2300 lbs to move around.

I took it to Laguna, turned 180 at the starting line, and headed into the corkscrew from the wrong direction at wide open throttle. During replay, it appears that I left the ground at approximately 120 mph. I then glanced off an inside wall and far into the sky, before appearing to hit some sort of vertical limit.

Then the really weird stuff happened.

I got bimmer to join a closed exhibition room so that I could get some help describing it, but he was at a loss for words too! I'll try and get the pics posted from a saved replay soon.

 It was interesting to note that although I'd appeared to have found some kind of invisible boundary or boundaries, I still didn't roll side to side more than maybe 30 degrees. Front to rear I think I was at 45 degrees or less. Both these extremes were observed before and after the car got "wobbly"(?) in mid-air.

The only thing I could think of was that it reminded me of a mime trapped in an invisible box. It even might be a little like one, but what is the box limited relative to?

[Hoplee]

[Spiny Anteater]

I think I can please innocent on the Shelby (I hope) - my rainbows are only on Hondas! As for embarrassing cars - wait until i did out the pink Cruiser...

I have to admit that the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that my memory failed me (again) and that the RX-7 incident was in the late days of FM1 rather than the early days of FM2, which suggests that you're right about the limit being much lower than I suggested earlier.

As you siad though, it's pretty obvious that there is a limit built in there.

Nice pics by the way, and you're also right about the invisible boundaries. They had the same thing in FM1 which was particularly evident if you ran the wrong way up the S/F straight at Alpine Ring - i really wish they'd kept that track in FM2

[fndrbndr]

Take those pics and sell that toon at the daught gnet.

"Flying Car Rulz...8 mil creditz!"

[Hoplee]

Spiney, you're innocent, turns out Fit is the one responsible for this eye-searing horror!

[Spiny Anteater]

Yes, that's way better than anything I can do with the paint

[Hoplee]

'better'?

surely you jest!

Didn't you do that nice R390 a while back?

[TheJohnNewton]

Take those pics and sell that toon at the daught gnet.

"Flying Car Rulz...8 mil creditz!"

LMAO...  I was already smiling when I saw the pics.  When I saw your post I actaully laughed out loud.  My ass is still in place though  .   I posted a pic on here a long time ago of a lambo doing a front wheelie when I hit a curb "just right" (or would that be just wrong  ) on Sunset reverse but I've not seen a flying car before.