Its a S-S-Showdown, a 4 wheel battle for the English Channel.

[Fit4aking]

No story, this time its personal.

Anyone who's ever raced with me knows that there are a few cars that I absolutely adore.  For all the new guys here's a short list:

-All of the Panoz cars in all the classes
-All of the TVR cars especially the Sagaris
-All of the Cadillacs, there's only a few but luxury sports cars are great

So its no suprise that I take pride in making those specific cars as best as I can so I can put them on the leaderboards and do well with them online.  Recently I've been branching out and trying new things, AWD's to be specific.  Turns out a new project of mine has gone and slaughtered what I thought was a very fast time on Mugello Long (and Maple Valley).  Well that just won't stand.  Not at Spanky's.  Seeing as its unfair to just stop tuning one car to keep another faster I've decided to challenge myself personally (and anyone else) to make the recently released Audi S5 and my long time love TVR Tuscan S as fast as they possibly can be around Mugello.

So that's the challenge:
Pick a car: TVR Tuscan S or Audi S5
Build it to A850
Tune to your hearts content
Run Laps, either in Free Run, in Exhibition, or in the 400hp Semi-Pro Series.

I'll keep a running tab of lap times in the respective posts if anyone cares to play along.

[Fit4aking]

TVR Tuscan S, the UK equivalent to a Corvette

The Build
Engine Parts:Sport Fuel System
Platform Parts:Full Race, Street Weight Reduction
Tires and Wheels:
     Tire Type/Brand:Sport Tires, Kumho's
     Rim Style: OZ Superleggera III's
     Rim Width: 235/30R19's Front, 275/25R20's Rear
Spoilers and Diffusers: Full Forza Aero Kit

The Toon
Tire Pressure:
     Front: 28
     Rear: 29
Gearing:
     Final Drive: 4.11
     (1-6): 3.32, 2.09, 1.40, 1.00, .83, .70
Alignment:
     Camber Front: -0.8
     Camber Rear: -0.7
     Toe Front: 0.1
     Toe Rear: -0.2
     Caster: 5.3
Anti Sway Bars:
     Front: 15.67
     Rear: 16.17
Springs:
     Front: 423.1
     Rear: 423.2
Dampers:
     Rebound Front: 8.3
     Rebound Rear: 8.2
     Bound Front: 4.2
     Bound Rear: 4.1
Aero Adjustment:
     Splitter (Ft): 110
     Spoiler (Rr): 225
Brake Bias:
     Bias: 47%
     Pressure: 110%
Differential:
     Acceleration: 25
     Deceleration: 50

[Fit4aking]

2007 Audi S5: Truth in Engineering


The Build
Engine Parts:Sport Fuel, Street Block
Platform Parts:Full Race, Race Weight Reduction
Tires and Wheels:
     Tire Type: Brand:Michelin Slicks
     Rim Style: Motegi Touge
     Rim Width: 275/25R20
Spoilers and Diffusers:Full Forza Aero

The Toon
Tire Pressure:
     Front: 29
     Rear: 29
Gearing:
     Final Drive: 3.73
     (1-6): Still Default
Alignment:
     Camber Front: -0.9
     Camber Rear: -0.8
     Toe Front: 0.2
     Toe Rear: 0.2
     Caster: 5.3
Anti Sway Bars:
     Front: 1
     Rear: 40
Springs:
     Front: 544.9
     Rear: 411.1
Dampers:
     Rebound Front: 5.8
     Rebound Rear: 4.4
     Bound Front: 2.9
     Bound Rear: 2.2
Aero Adjustment:
     Splitter (Ft): 95
     Spoiler (Rr): 130
Brake Bias:
     Bias: 47
     Pressure: 110
Differential:
     Acceleration: 25 ft, 59 rr
     Deceleration: 0 ft, 59 rr
     Torque Split: 40/60


Mugello Long - 112.080

[BarbecuePete]

COME ON ENGLAND!!! 

[Fit4aking]

First update, doesn't look good for team Blackpool, the TVR is stuck in the mid 112's hotlapping and is repeatably in the low 113's in race trim.  The S5 on the other hand made some big gains today. 

Looking over the toon while I was inputing it revealed that it was still default for the most part.  On to the TonkaToy, I left the SWR at the cars default and started with a 54.5% Blooze toon to balance the car out.  The only thing I left was the 1/40 swaybar setting, that works very well on AWD's.  I ran another 400hp Semi-Pro and found I was very close to the 111's, very close.

Ran both cars online with the guys this afternoon and the S5 is hands down the better car as it stands now.  It can get up to speed and maintain it better than the Tuscan.  Looks like the TVR needs to have the hot-tire push resolved and I may have to look over the build.  Its 30mph faster on the straight and it accelerates harder but it looses up to 15mph on the sweepers and the trade off is too great to overcome without running flawless laps, and that's impossible in traffic.

More TVR testing on the way, I will make this car better.

[Snyder005]

I'll try my hand with the TVR Tuscan S, as i'm also a fan of them.  I think the Sagaris looks like an evil fish for some reason, but it's cool and the TVR Tuscan R has amazing styling!  Also the Tuscan S was my first ever A-Class car, my fastest laps being a 1:54.xxx at Grand PRix and a 1:55.xxx at Mugello in stock tunes, back when i was nowhere near as good a driver as I am now.  Hopefully i can be that "shot in the arm" that boosts "team england" past "team germany", hmm old german/england rivalry renewed I see, lol.

Yes that Audi is quite fast, you've done quite a good work tuning it!

[BarbecuePete]

I have a feeling the TVR may not catch up 

I raced against a guy in an S5 the other day and those things are so fast...

I will have to give the TVR a go though, We shall fight them through the turns and on the straights, we shall never surrender!!

[bimmerlovere39]

Nice!  A Churchill reference! 

As much as I love German cars (think Heidi), I have to cheer for Team Blackpool - your speed in that S5 is downright frightening!

I'll put it this way - your speed in these two has me going back over Heidi's setup.  And not just "going over", but actually changing things! 

[Fit4aking]

I've been considering how to trade off some of the speed of the TVR for a bit more handling.  Perhaps I'll go back over the tire compound and brand selection.  I know that slicks are out but all I really need is a little more speed in the turns so we'll see if I can tell the difference in the brands.

Come on Team Blackpool! ! !

[Snyder005]

Through together a Tuscan S and was pulling consistent 1:53's with 1:52's easily possible.  Just need to tune out some of the understeer and i can easily take off some time.  Haven't tried the S5 yet, though it seems to be the faster.

EDIT:

what are the ride heights for both cars?

[Spiny Anteater]

I would also expect the S5 to be faster. Not from any evidence on my part (both cars are currently stock in my garage), but looking at the leaderboards about the only place I see the Tuscan S is on the Factory Spec Career Boards.

I suspect that it's not just the outright speed of the car that's coming into play here - I think that the Tuscan is harder to get consistent times in. Couple that with the fact that maple valley and Mugello both suit the grippier cars, and I think the TVR is facing an uphill struggle.

[Fit4aking]

I know the Tuscan isn't one of the Usual Suspects, but it transitions very well.  While it is lower on overall grip its more stable when transitioning from left to right.  I also have fought the dreaded understeer and the best cure I can find is to lower front downforce until the car is balanced.  I tried increasing rear downforce originally (hence the high number) and found that the car works better with less front aero help.

As far as the ride height goes, I'll have to get back to you.  None of them are fully lowered but they are about 2 to 3 clicks up, maybe more. 

The other ding against the TVR is its lack of AWD.  You can't rely on anything to pull the front end through the sweepers so if you go it too hot your screwed and if you go it to soft your chasing the rear end out of the turn.  Consistancy is tougher but if you can get a hold of it and let the extra ooomph pull you down the straight you can get a nose in on corner entry. 

Back to that uphill challenge...isn't that the point....the underdog has been established, but just how good is the favorite??

[BarbecuePete]

Ok so its D-day today (lest we forget) and its time to show Gerry what us Brits are made of....

TVR Tuscan -S 400bhp - 337lb-ft - 2423lbs (A850)

Suffered with understeer to start but lowering the front weight bias gave much more front end grip...

Sport Ignition
Street Fuel
Race Platform, No WR
BF Goodrich Sport (DOT) tires
235/35 R18 / 265/35 R18
MHT Tenza wheels
Full Aero

Tires_ 28 /29
Camber_ -1.2 / -1.0 (Tires running hot on inside edge, will try reducing)
Toe_ -0.1/0.0
ARB_ 20.07 / 17.77
Springs_ 445.9 / 502.8
Rebound_ 8.2 / 9.2
Bump_ 4.1 / 4.6
Aero_ 85 /198 (std setting, very high rear DF on this car!)
Brakes_ 55/110
Diff_ 25/40

Audi S5 387bhp - 339lb-ft - 2638lbs (A850)

Loads of grip straight out of the box with std toon... A few tweaks would give up some extra time but im not sure if this build has the speed to keep its lead on the final straight...

Sport Ignition
Street Cam
Race Platform, Full WR
Avon Race tires
245/30 R20 / 245/30 R20 (+2 rim size)
Full Aero

Tires_ 28 /28
Camber_ -1.2 / -1.0
Toe_ -0.1/0.0
ARB_ 15.77 / 18.79
Springs_ 513.9 / 428.9
Rebound_ 9.0 / 7.8
Bump_ 4.5 / 3.8
Aero_ 85 /100 (std setting)
Brakes_ 55/110
Diffs_ Fr 44/0 (std) Rr 59/59 (std) Cen 30/70

The times....

TVR Tuscan -S : 1:54.973

AUDI S5          : 1:55.680

Horray for England, the Queen and St George! (Cue patriotic dambusters theme tune.... )

My previous best o this track was a 1:57.xxx in a VW R32 (my A-class online workhorse) I ran the TVR first and did a few tweaks before setting my best time then started on lapping with the Audi. The TVR is easily the faster car in a straight line and though the Audi was much faster in the turns, except the last turn where it seemed to want to understeer, This may just be because the track is dropping away at that point because it has loads of grip everywhere else..  The TVR pulled ahead with its extra speed from the start and had just enough grip and plenty of power to be able to stay with and then come past the AUDI everytime on the exit of the last corner and pull away on the final straight, I was usually just ahead in the Audi around turn 5-6 but the TVR just kept coming past on that last straight...

So there we have it England 1 - Germany 0.... and it didn't even go to penalty's...

P.S.
Would suggest guys that you try around a 47% to 49% front bias on the TVR, that should get rid of the understeer for you...

[Snyder005]

thanks for the tip, i'll have to adjust the tune a bit.

[sk15kev]

Sorry fella, I have bad news.

I quickly put together a build for the TVR and the S5 both with Dot tyres.

TVR - all aero parts, all handling, Sport weight, dot tyres max width and whatever power I could fit in.
tyres - 235/275 - 2369lbs, HP387, TQ325
stats
0-60 - 3.78
0-100 - 8.83
TS - 175
100-0 - 271.1
G60 - 1.07
G120 - 1.07

time - 153.808 (113.808)
Felt really nice to drive, well balanced and a bit of go.  Although I haven't ran Mugello much in A class this was my fastest lap time after only 4 laps.  Didn't think the A5 would have much chance against it.


Audi A5 - Race Wing and Front Bumber, Dot tyres, max width, all Race handling including weight except Sport brakes. Race Block and a few other minor engine bits. Also Running less aero and stiffer springs on the rear compared to Spanky's build.

tyres - 265/265 - 2634lbs, HP428, TQ392
stats
0-60 - 3.68
0-100 - 8.24
TS - 171.4
100-0 - 285.4
G60 - 1.1
G120 - 1.1

time - 153.678 (113.678)
Was immediatey impressed with the benchmark.  Took it to the track and it felt fast and really sharp on the turn in.  Knew straight away it would beat the TVR, but it took a good 8 laps to do it due to mistakes.  I think this build will go faster still.  Setup was almost pure V5.11 except 10% bias on ARB.

The S5 is such an awesome car I can't see the TVR winning on this track without some help from teh secret services.  GB wont be winning the war on Italian soil, but I think it will show stronger resistence if the fight came to home turf (Silverstone).

Will post the full builds and setup if anyone shows an interest.

-K