A Class AWD Stable

[Blooze]

I thought I had a thread devoted to this already, but I can't find it - perhaps it is just spurious posts scattered about in other threads.  At any rate, it has its own thread now.

I have 14 AWD cars in A Class right now.  And they all need rebuilding.  So much has changed about how I build and tune, and drive, since I created them that nothing about them is valid.  As if to drive this home, I went thru my Evo TME yesterday, and with just enough driving time to level the car out I improved its QR by .664 seconds.  Those of you who mess with the QR business will recognize that that is a rather signifcant improvement for an already tuned and tested car.

I will lay some of it off on the Wheel Nut - I have improved somewhat over this last year.  Why, in some circles, I might even be considered moderately fast.

One thing that has changed in the setup is my preferred Bias.  The TME Evo is currently working with 52% and a 72.6 SWR.  That coupled with a -.2 front Toe setting has it turning in and holding its line on exit really well.  The only issue is that it has a tendency to push when no external force is on the car.  When Braking or Accellerating, the car is dandy, but if I am off both pedals - coasting, then it doesn't want to turn.  I think it may have something to do with the DF which I am running at 92%.  The problem doesn't warrant me chasing it down.  I just get back on the throttle and everything is fine.  This in itself has sped me up some.

A Class Top Ten

Car	ATL II	SEB II	Tsukuba	QR
1998 Eagle Talon Tsi Turbo	55.514	72.518	55.129	183.161
2006 Impreza S204 LCE	55.427	72.767	54.988	183.182
2006 Lancer Evo IX GT	55.188	73.076	55.004	183.268
2002 Skyline GT-R V-Spec II	55.302	72.896	55.075	183.273
2007 Lancer Evo X GSR	55.470	72.884	54.979	183.333
2004 Lancer Evo VIII MR	55.594	73.063	54.818	183.475
1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX	55.430	72.912	55.376	183.718
1998 TK Impreza M20b	55.329	73.092	55.369	183.790
2000 Evo VI TME (Unicorn)	55.778	73.242	55.222	184.242
1998 Impreza 22B STi	55.462	73.784	55.120	184.366

$

[Fit4aking]

For as long as I put off the "other" drivetrains, I'm actually looking forward to this.  I can say that the Aerogear Integra that I have in A-class is a monster.  I got it from the free tune database and tried it out with great success.  I still don't get the gearing but if it works, who am I to judge.

Since trying that one car, I now have 2 A-class AWD's and 2 untuned A-class potentials.  If I can follow along and try to progress these things I'll be much better for it.  There's just so many dang EVO's.

[Blooze]

I was really pleased with the TME Evo.  Just to check it's Twisty Track Ranking, I went and ran all of the ROT Snakes and managed to knock another 10 seconds off of them.

The Porsche 997 T is a pretty good car, but needs a lot more work on my part.  Changing the Bias to 42% from 39% helped smooth out some of the herky-jerky with changing velocity and direction at the same time.  I am not comfortable with the car.  More time in the seat and a bit more tweaking in the transmission and DF will probably move this car right to the top of the list.  (You can't see it for now, but there are a number of cars that will knock it out of its position as I get them rebuilt.)

I am excited about the S204 - it just feels right.

When I get to a car that is more common I will post a setup.  I am sort of using a universal setup to start so most of the cars will be similar.  The primary alteration on all the Front engined AWD cars is the 52% Bias.  The S204 is 52/72 Blooze Tonka toon with .1 Toe on the front being the only other than common setting.  The car's ability to track under accelleration on exit is outstanding.  I was able to set a new personal best on Tsukuba on the 3^rd lap of a Career Race - I should be able to really improve my ranking on that track when I get to running in Free Run.

I need to try to force myself to concentrate on building, tuning and running the QR for all the cars and then work up the top cars.  I keep finding myself puttering around with the current car - this is going to take forever if I am not more disciplined.

$

[Spiny Anteater]

I need to try to force myself to concentrate on building, tuning and running the QR for all the cars and then work up the top cars.  I keep finding myself puttering around with the current car - this is going to take forever if I am not more disciplined.

$

Welcome to my world! I can see it taking forever just to get a full set of times on the hotlap board what with the random car thing and all. But, on the bright side it keeps the interest up

One quick sort-of-question for you Blooze, which partly stems from my running the R4 Audi. With 4WD cars, I often find that they really don't like a series of direction changes - for example by the time you get to the last of the "sawteeth" on the test tracks, I find it is getting really difficult to persuade the car to change direction; instead the car tries to continue the turn it's in or at the very least it seems to take a long time to start turning the other way. Does that sound similar to your"herky-jerky" movement in the Porsche?

[Fit4aking]

Hey Blooze, the 997T may not be the norm but I've been monkeying around with one for a while now.  As far as the AWD's go I only have a couple in A-class and only 1 of them is really tuned well.  At least I thought it was till the other night.

The 997T is a really pretty car in my garage, I like the fact that it isn't normal, and I can catch some people off guard with it.  I'm having a bit of trouble trying to bias the car well.  I have trouble with the suspension bias the most but trying to get the torque split correct on the Rear Engine cars is a mess.  They just don't pull the front end around like my Integra or my C-class Delta.

I still am in anticipation of an Evo or a Skyline.  I have an Evo that I intend to tune but I don't know which one it is.  Hopefully you touch on it here.  I'm not sure even where to go with it, build wise.  I usually drive a car stock and determine which way to go with it, but I don't like the understeer of the default versions so I get really frustrated and don't finish the stock QR.  The Evo and the R34 I have saved are dreadful stock, IMO.  But hey, I'm branching out.

[bimmerlovere39]

I keep meaning to revisit my Subaru project.  I'd like to see how far I've come in my tuning ability since October - Especially considering that that Subaru is still one of my favorite cars.

Ya know... I think that Subaru just might deserve a better paint job...

I wonder how the JEi stripes look on it? 

[Blooze]

@ Spiny:
I place the problems I am having with the Porsche at the feet of the weight Bias - 61% of the weight is on the rear wheels.  The problem smoothed out somewhat when I changed the Bias to 42%.  When I get back Tuit, I will creep up on moving the car towards a more balanced Bias.   The Front engined cars are running a 52% Bias and I am not having the trouble with them that I have with the Porsche.

@Fit:
Here's ya a Skyline. 
2002 Skyline GT-R V-Spec II

• Hp: 369
• Tq: 323
• Wt: 2522

Parts

• Engine: Sport exhaust and intercooler
• Handling: All Race parts
• Tires: Race Kumho; 265mm; 18"; Fisk Profil 5S
• Body: Forza front and rear wings; Forza rear bumper; Top Secret Hood and Skirt

Gears

• FD = 4.11
• 1-6= 3.04   2.08   1.57   1.25   1.05   0.89

Setup

Wt Bias - SWR	52.00%	72.00%
Parameter	Front	Rear
Tires	29	30
Camber	-1.0	-0.7
Toe	0.1	-0.0
Caster	5.0
ARB	10.2	11.0
Springs	472	435
Height	6.6	6.7
Rebound	7.1	6.4
Bump	3.5	3.5
Aero 88%	110	132
Brakes	48	104
Front Diff	42	0
Rear Diff	38	38
Torque	50

This is a pretty good one.  It could be the top car without much effort.

I'll work up an Evo X next.

$

[Fit4aking]

Well, would'ya look at that, a new toy to try.  I'll give it a shot.  I still think that these things are heavy, long wheelbase, bruisers over the fine finesse of my other AWD's.  I'll try this one out as I suspect that my issues with it are more my driving style than anything else.

I think I'll do a comparo with that and my 997, probably two different animals but worth it none the less.

Thanks Blooze!

[Blooze]

I think you'll be surprized at how soon and how hard you can get back on it coming out of a corner.

$

[Fit4aking]

Built the car out tonight, I had to buy one the car I had collecting dust is a Nur.  What a very capable little machine.  It did great on Maple Valley although its lack of top speed hindered setting a personal best.  A very comfortable flowing car.  Went to RAII for a test and found it to be a little understeery on turn 1, but it was ver good overall, again the top speed on the backstraight was a little behind my ghost.  On the Tsukuba, again I noticed the dreaded understeer but after 6 laps I decided to change my driving instead of going after the tune.  Sure enough the car came right around and I was off to some pretty consistant and fast times (for me). 

Here's my QR for this beast:
Road Atlanta 2 - 56.007 (55's are soo close)
Sebring Short - 73.462
Tsukuba - 55.839

If this hog had a touch more top end it would be super.  The acceleration is more than adequate, very good even.  The only thing I have to compare it to is an S-class TankTuned Audi S4, and an Aerogear Integra.

Now about that pesky 997T.  I went and re-tuned it to the 42/78 bias/SWR.  Boy what a difference that made.  I still think that the Torque split is my Achillies Heel.  I've tried everything from 45 to 55 and none of the increments tend to help or hinder the car.  Its very understeery at speed but on moderate to slow corners it does well.  I think the lack of aero on my build could also be an issuse.  Either some serious tuning or a rebuild may be in order.  Another thing I had to adjust was the FD.  I used Matio's settings and the FD is just too short for the turbo.  I set it to 3.70 and its better but not ideal, I'll have to revisit that when I get around to fixin the suspension. 

Here's my comparo QR for the P-car:
Road Atlanta 2 - 56.818
Sebring Short - 73.877
Tsukuba - 57.427

As you can see the car isn't a grip king.  I was hoping it would do better Sebring and it is much faster but overall its slower.  Those few corners can really ruin a solid lap.  It seemed that the thing never stops accelerating all the way to the braking zone but you have to go much slower than the Skyline in the corners and I would lose so much time there each lap.  Tsukuba was a lesson in futility, the final sweeper is a joke in this car, a full 15mph slower than the Skyline and nowhere on that track is it even feasible to lay down the power.

My next ventur with AWD will most likely be an EVO VIII MR that I haven't messed with.  I believe someone has one that can run 52's on Tsukuba which means I should be able to embarass myself in a self tuned version.  What's life without challenges, this is just my next Forza hurdle.  I hope my feet don't get tangled.

Thanks for the setup Blooze.  I really liked it, even though on the Nissan race of the Pro Series I got lapped by everyone up to 5th place, what a horrible 8 laps that was stuck at 152 mph on the speedway.  All the other races were runaways so it evens out.

[Spiny Anteater]

Now that's curious.  Blooze is running a 50% F/R torque split and Fit has a 45-55% split. I'm curious to know how you both came across those figures and why you like the cars set that way.

Personally I tend to run a 30/70 F/R split. That's a bit of a carry over from FM1 to be honest, where initially I ran 40/60 before getting tired of the understeer and switching more torque to the rear wheels. Feuerdog's calculator calls for 25/75 so it seems he prefers even more torque to the rear wheels.

I've also noticed that Blooze's tune has 42% accel lock on the front diff. Again, I presume that suits your driving style, but when I ran the Audi I ended up dropping this from 40% down to 25% to negate the on-power understeer I was getting. It worked surprisingly well. I'm just throwing this in the air wondering if it might help Fit's understeer issues trying one of these changes.

Then againg, that might explain why most of my Audi's oversteer...

[Fit4aking]

I tried the torque spit at every step fron 45 to 55.  I was never sure which way made the biggest difference.  I felt likt the torque to the front caused the car to initially pull the front wheels but then understeer caused by front wheelspin under full boost.  When I set the split more to the rear I felt like the car was launching out of the corner and floating the front wheels into understeer.  I never tried to set the car up like "front assisted RWD" though so I may try that.

I also thought that the front diff setting seemed high but I'm no AWD tuner yet so I'm still experimenting.  I still think it may need front aero to take full advantage of the available grip.  This car really intruiges me.

[Blooze]

One of the things I noticed back in Forza 1 and has followed here is that I can just about duplicate the order created by the QR with a sort on G@120 Desc, 0to100.  That and my tuning and driving tastes make the G@120 number the driver in my garage.

I noticed that the changes I had been making to the Diffs were hitting the value by -.01 to -.02.  So, until I know better what is going on with the diffs my position is, "Doing nothing is safer than guessing."  The only thing I am changing right now is to set the rear diff to 38/38.  Everything else is stock.  I may start testing the lower lock on the Front Accel as Spiny has mentioned.

Oh, and I have been moving the torque split to 50/50, as I am the Bias.  My driving style/technique right now seems to favor a more balanced car.

As for the 997 T;  a little birdy in the back of my head keeps whispering that a 48/74 toon is going to be just right... 

I built up a couple Evos, an 8MR and a 10GSR yesterday.  They are working very similarly to the others, top end challenged.  The 8MR currently holds my PB on Tsukuba, a 54.818.

Rather than spend the time duplicating the effort of building my leaderboard sheet, I have decided to post a portion of it and attach it to the first post.  The use of light gray text denotes times and cars that are older technology.

$

[Spiny Anteater]

...  The only thing I am changing right now is to set the rear diff to 38/38...

That's something else I missed too. A lot will depend on how you like you car set-up (and I get the feeling I prefer a bit more on-throttle oversteer than you), but I tend to run a very high rear accel diff on my 4WD cars (about 75%ish). I don't think I would even consider that in a RWD, but in a 4WD it can kick the backend out exiting a corner which can again help with the understeer. That can make the car surprisingly twitchy and definitely will not be for everyone, but it might be worth a try for some.

[Drift2XL]

I'm thinking along the lines as Spiny. I like that rear favored diff bias. I'm not as aggressive with the rear lock though. I'm usually looking at a 33/67, but have had to move further on a couple of cars to a 25/75.

But I have been trying out decel side lock to see if I can loosen the rear a bit on entry without going to wild toe settings. I feel like I'm getting closer to a compromise between the wild hair hot lap and online competition repeatable.

I would think that moving more torque to the rear on the 997 Turbo would fit the car better. I wouldn't forget that it is a Porsche with all the weight hanging behind the rear axel. The weight should help hooking the rear tires up almost forcing a high rear torque split to get a better balance.

I haven't done much with my version to be honest. I did try it stock and was not happy. It seemed it wanted to swing the rear around like the other RR's do. In fact, it absolutely needed it. AWD understeer bad. But in the limited Career races I have run it, I have not hit a breakthrough adjustment to make the car not feel awkward.

Awkward. That's the word I would use for it. It has all the goods to dominate. It just hasn't been put together yet.