Author Topic: Caster - What's it good for anyway?  (Read 1760 times)

JG4tr

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Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« on: February 23, 2008, 07:38:06 PM »
I have some thoughts on this subject and am in the process of running some tests that I'll be posting up here shortly but, before I do, I'd like to invite you all to voice your thoughts and experiences.

Do you use it to help on turn-in? Do you leave it alone and not really mess with it? No matter what your answer, I'd like to get your input. Besides, I'm hoping that it'll make for some interesting conversation while I'm collecting the data.  ;) J

Serial

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2008, 08:07:39 PM »
I always move it to at least 5.1 because it looks like I did something that way.  Honestly, most of my cars are still at 5.1.  Past that, I really don't mess with it. *shrugs*  I'm no help.
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Snyder005

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2008, 09:14:28 PM »
I usually run caster at 5.5 or 5.6, though sometimes i move it to 6 for the same reason as Serial moves his to 5.1

It must have some impact on the car, as I've seen set-ups running 2.1 something caster.  I also believe i was able to effect the braking benchmark of a car once, by moving the caster. 

fndrbndr

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2008, 10:31:21 PM »
I usually run 5.5, but that's admittedly mostly force of habit, as that was the default setting in FDog's v3 calc.  I have noticed that cars run better with that than the 5.0 default.
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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2008, 06:02:35 AM »
I used to run very high caster to introduce more feel and weight to the steering, but after I switched wheel brands I started lowering it back down.. I usually stay in the 4.5 to 5.3 range now, but I might stray if I'm in a particularly difficult car. Race and drift cars often run way beyond the ranges available in Forza because of the camber gain and damping effects.

Higher caster means less responsive and slower steering, but also higher straight line stability and more self centering force. Too much can make it hard to recover from understeer. The effects are much more evident when you're using a steering wheel.

Although I'm not quite sure if this is modelled in Forza, front wheel drive cars effectively drag the car instead of push it meaning high caster actually has a destabilizing effect.

The specific effect is hard to notice in-game, so I tend to stay close to the default value.. I usually start my FFs around 4.6, FA at 4.8 and FR at 5.2. MR and RR with their lighter front ends run a bit more, 5.4 for starters.

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2008, 06:39:46 AM »
Like fndr I used to run with 5.5 caster from feuerdog's v.3 calculator. But, with the understeer issues I gradually moved back down, first to 5.2-5.3, and now I'm back at 5.0 for 90% of my cars. That's what feels best to me, even if it does appear that I'm completely ignoring it :D
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JG4tr

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2008, 11:54:00 PM »
Okay gang, I'm seeing, more or less, the sort of responses that I was expecting to get so, here's what I've been working on...

As we know, by reviewing telemetry data, front end camber is affected by several things. Of course there's the obvious static camber that we adjust at the top of our alignment tuning screen. Then, there are dynamic changes to camber while on the track, caused by weight transfer/body roll. These forces cause the outside wheel's suspension to compress and the inside wheel's suspension to extend during cornering.  ARBs would also have an effect on camber due to the way they push against the suspension during these cornering motions. Both wheels are affected in tandem under the forces of acceration and deceleration as well. Due to the geometry of the mounting points of the suspension components, this movement causes changes in the camber angles and generally speaking, the softer the suspension, the more substantial the change in the camber angles from it's static setting due to this increased suspension movement.

So, let's say that we're test driving and tuning up a car, watching the telemetry, looking at the camber of that outside wheel. If we like our springs, dampers and bars where they are, then this is where we all have traditionally used static camber to fine tune that all important contact patch. We've no doubt noticed that the outside wheel gains positive camber as the suspension compresses but, how much attention has been paid to the inside wheel? Well, the inside wheel is gaining negative camber and that, coupled with the static negative camber setting can mean that wheel angles during cornering of -1.0 to -3.0 are typical, which would seem to be better suited to turning the car in the opposite direction and reduces the contact patch noticeably.

Herein lies our opportunity to make use of caster. I took a car with 0.0 static camber to a track and while completely stopped on a flat section, measured changes in camber angles up to full wheel lock with different levels of caster.

Caster   Outside Wheel    Inside Wheel
===============================
1.0             -0.53              +0.70
2.0             -1.02              +1.33
3.0             -1.55              +2.00
4.0             -2.05              +2.65
5.0             -2.55              +3.30
6.0             -3.05              +3.95
7.0             -3.56              +4.62

Now, you'll note that this is at full steering lock and while most wheel users probably don't turn that far, some controller users probably do. What we see is that for every 'degree' of caster approximately -0.5 of camber is added to the outside wheel and +0.65 is added to the inside one.

At this point I started to think that maybe I could use static camber to get me in the ballpark for weight transfer under accel and decel and use caster to handle the camber changes to both the outside and inside wheels during cornering. Well, I've been pretty successful with some 6.0 caster tunes as of late but, figured if I was going to present this information to the group, I ought to have something a little more tangible to work with.

So last night, after running the TT at Mugello Short as a 'warmup', I took the R3 Ferrari F430 back out onto the track for some more testing. I ran the car in default trim with the exception of aero which was @ 198/400 and braking @ 46/100 and while the results were not as definitive as I would have liked, there was a noticeable trend. I checked the telemetry at the same point in turn one with the aid of a couple of small buildings at the left side of the track. Note the significant improvement to the camber on the inside wheel, even at less than half of total lock.

Caster   Camber      Outside   Inside   Total Camber
============     ========================
3.5         -0.7           -0.4      -1.7         -2.1
4.0         -0.6           -0.4      -1.6         -2.0
4.5         -0.6           -0.3      -1.5         -1.8
5.0         -0.5           -0.3      -1.3         -1.6
5.5         -0.4           -0.3      -1.1         -1.4
6.0         -0.3           -0.2      -1.0         -1.2
6.5         -0.2           -0.2      -0.8         -1.0

I began my runs with the default -0.5 camber 5.0 caster and then worked my way up thru 6.5 caster. Then, I worked down from the default to 3.5 and finally, returned to 6.0. I was able to post times in the 51.7s for all of the runs from 5.0 to 6.5 with 51.6s at 6.0. The runs with caster below 5.0 got progressively slower until the 3.5 run which I could only get into the upper 51.9s. When i returned to 6.0, I was able to get back to a 51.8 on only my second lap. It should be noted that in the lower caster runs, the steering felt great. It had a very linear, hooked up feel to it but, it was also clearly slowing the car down and the higher static camber was also reducing braking efficiency. The higher caster runs did not have the same positive feel but, seemed to get the car turning with less actual steering input and the improvement to the camber on the inside wheel seemed to be making a difference in cornering speeds which was accompanied by improved braking due to the overall lower static camber.

Since I am still not able to get the inside wheel camber down as low as I'd like to see it, this did not turn out to be the complete solution that I had hoped it would be. For that, I'm afraid that having the ability to customize the suspension geometry or, independant adjustments for all four wheels would be necessary.

Due to the progressive nature of the camber gain due to caster, the tighter the corner, the more the effect. Keep this in mind when doing a telemetry/tuning run. It may be to our advantage to actually tune the contact patch for a corner radius range that takes into account the types of corners that are the most critical for success at a particular track ( if you have track specific tunes like I do ).

Running lower static camber and higher caster is helping me to improve my laptimes due to the improved front end cornering grip and braking ability so, it might be worth a little experimentation to see if it helps you too. It always helps to have another tool in the box and if you should happen to play around with this a bit, I'd love to hear what you find.

J
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 04:03:47 PM by JG4tr »

JG4tr

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2008, 01:49:39 PM »
Edited for clarity and additional content.  J
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 04:05:03 PM by JG4tr »

Blooze

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2008, 10:45:07 AM »
Good job on this.  When I get to the suspension on the Pea Picker I will give the caster the nod in front of static camber.  Something has to be done but I don't know what.  Maybe just a tad increase of dynamic camber when cornering will be the the ticket.

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JG4tr

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2008, 11:27:36 AM »
Thanks Blooze, I appreciate you taking the time to see what I'm up to.

I continue to monitor your Pea Picker project with interest and am curious to see if your caster/camber test confirms my findings.

 ;) J

TheJohnNewton

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2008, 01:49:11 PM »
I'm late to the party here having just read through this.  I used to run default 5.0 all the time because frankly I had no idea what changing the caster did so I didn't touch it.  Recently I began experimenting with it using the "seat of the pants" method. :)  Based purely on feel I actually like decreasing the caster to the 4.7-4.8 range on the few cars I've experimented with it on.  I've done this on FF and just this morning on a FR BMW.  I'm not sure exactly how to describe the change in feel this makes other than to say it just feels like I have better control into and out of corners.
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JG4tr

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2008, 02:23:52 PM »
I know what you mean about 'that feel'. It was readily apparent during my testing at lower caster levels. It gave me great road feel and confidence in the steering of the car but, unfortunately, it did not provide me with the great laptimes to match... 

Ironically, if I remember things correctly from my days turning a wrench, in the real world, having higher caster should provide a more positive feel and a higher return-to-center force in the steering. When in fact the exact opposite is true with FM2 and my Force Feedback wheel.  ???

Detrick

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2008, 03:23:49 PM »
Excellent stuff here J.  I've got about 1/2 my cars set at 5.5 (earlier builds/tunes) and the other in the 5.1 to 5.2 range.  I think I may try some experimentation this weekend with 6.0 and see how it goes.



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JG4tr

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2008, 03:47:20 PM »
I look forward to hearing what you find. Don't forget to try the lower static camber to go along with it.   ;)

feuerdog

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Re: Caster - What's it good for anyway?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2008, 02:04:16 PM »
Awesome testing Jay, I did some of this myself for the calculator back in the day.

There may be one thing that youre overlooking though, and thats roll resistance.

Anti-roll bars, springs, and dampers will all have an impact on how much dynamic camber is added to the static camber and caster equation.
To ensure a more accurate set of measurements you'll need to establish a very even testing platform, with a known set of suspension setting ratios.  By knowing these ratios in adavnce you will be able to relate them better to another vehicle.

My caster tests were done in relation to the calculators ratios, which for V2 and V3 were roughly the same.  Therefore I could establish a more consitent relationship of caster setting vs grip.
With that in mind V4, V5, and most of the tunes i've seen on the Muscle Inc. forums favor stiffer spring and/or ARB values to the V2 and V3 settings which the "5.5 caster" setting was derived.
With a stiffer roll resistance, a lower caster number makes perfect sense.

Other considerations are the track and vehicle downforce. 
The G forces involved in tight cornering at low speeds reduce dynamic camber from DF, but the roll angle and steering dynamic camber are high.
A high speed corner can have significantly higher downforces, resulting in higher roll rates, in addition to higher dynamic cambers overall, but lower caster induced dynamic camber.

Needless to say the relationships are complex.

For generic reasons I think we can at least agree that a caster value somewhere within 5.0~5.8 is optimal for the realistic suspension settings we use.

If I were to break it down farther, using 5.4 as a midpoint:

5.2 would be better for faster tracks, or stiff roll resistance cars.
5.4 average
5.6 would be better for shorter tracks, or soft roll resistance cars.

Does that make sense?