Author Topic: B Class  (Read 1494 times)

JG4tr

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B Class
« on: February 04, 2008, 05:10:20 PM »
This thread will contain setups and discussions for the B class cars
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 12:21:45 AM by JG4tr »

JG4tr

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Re: B Class
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2008, 12:57:03 AM »
Okay, I'm gonna kick off B class with another scoreboard outlaw.

The 1991 Honda CR-X    PI:700

A RWD conversion, weighing in at a scant 1863lbs with 628 ponies under the hood. Yep, shes a missile but, easily the nicest one to drive from my current stable. This is the setup that took me to a 07:48.666 on the Nordschleife.


The Build :

Powertrain: RWD conversion, didn't write down what code that was. Race everything w/turbo
Platform:All race parts including weight reduction, with exception of stock brakes. At less than 1900lbs, it didn't need 'em anyway
Aero: Forza race rear wing only
Tires & rims: Stock compound, 205/30R18s front and rear on Volk GT-Cs

The Setup :
 
Tire Pressure:
     Front:44
     Rear:55
Gearing:
     Final Drive: 3.55
     (1): 3.11
     (2): 1.99
     (3): 1.52
     (4): 1.22
     (5): 1.02
     (6): 0.89
Alignment:
     Camber Front:-0.5
     Camber Rear:-0.5
     Toe Front:0.0
     Toe Rear:-0.3
     Caster:    5.5
Anti-Roll Bars:
     Front: 40.00
     Rear:    1.00
Springs:
     Front: 372.6
     Rear:  248.8
Dampers:
     Rebound Front: 7.7
     Rebound Rear:  5.0
     Bump Front: 3.9
     Bump Rear:  2.5
Aero Adjustment:
     Front:  na
     Rear:  150  (max)
Brake Bias:
     Bias:       na %
     Pressure: na%
Differential:
     Acceleration: 18%
     Deceleration: 26%

That works out to be a weight bias of 60% and 66.7% springs.

The tire pressures are unusual but, seemed to be necessary to stabilize the stock rubber. The real subject for discussion however, are the ARBs and springs. This was talked about here awhile back in a post titled 'Build Note: Do the Sway Bars Really Matter in Forza?' over in the 'its about the cars' section.

Basically the technique uses a full strength bar on one end of the car and no bar on the other. My interpretation of what's at work here is, that with most all cars, one end of the car, or the other, is the key to making the car perform. With a FWD or AWD car, that end is the front end. Responsible for propelling, braking and steering the car, maintaining the best possible contact patch is very important. The same can be said of a muscle car and particularly a missile but, maintaining maximum traction on the rear end is what's important there.

If you've looked at the traction circle screen in telemetry before, you've probably noticed how the inside wheel's contact patch turns gets very small during cornering loads. The stiffer the bar, the smaller the patch. The ARB works as a torsional spring, linking the suspensions on each side of the car together. As you drive into a corner and the body rolls over, the suspension is compressed up into the wheelwell. Since there is a bar connecting the left and right side suspension components, the 'unweighted' suspension also gets compressed, virtually lifting it off the ground. If you've ever watched SCCA style races with production FWD cars, you know what I'm talking about. Well, how's a tire gonna help you corner if its not touching the ground??

Here's why I think this type of setup can be successful. You apply the full strength ( 40 ) to the bar on the less critical end of the car. Let's say we're talking about a FWD car so, the non-critical end is the rear. Sometimes a little softer spring is necessary for this but, basically you're looking to handle almost all of the anti-roll adjustment with that end of the car. The front springs will help out some, even with no bar. Now, you set up the critical end, in this example the front, with minimum bar ( 1 ) leaving the left and right sides to move independently. As cornering forces are now applied, both front tires can maintain full contact with the pavement, providing significantly more available grip.

Is this absolutely necessary, no. Should it be used all of the time, no. Does it have to be done the same way, no.

I have some setups that are 01/40 for FWD and AWD or 40/01 for RWD missiles, I have some at 10/40, I have some at 15/32.... You can use it as much or as little as you want to improve your contact patch and reclaim the grip needed to get the job done or, you can dismiss it as foolishness. To me, its just another tool in the box, another method of improving the performance of the car and in the end, isn't that what the whole idea of tuning in Forza is all about?

I hope that you enjoy the CR-X and that it helps you claim some new powertrack hotlap records like it has for me.  I also hope that after driving it, you'll try your hand at a few experiments with this tuning technique and let me know what you think.

J
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 02:12:16 AM by JG4tr »

Placard Rat

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Re: B Class
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2008, 05:44:07 AM »
I've seen missile builds with similar ARB settings before but didn't understand the theory behind it  until this post. +1 to you sir!

I'm going to try the technique out on my E-Type missile the first chance I get, hopefully it'll settle the old girl down some.

Rat

bimmerlovere39

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Re: B Class
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2008, 06:45:10 AM »
Interesting theory about the ARBs.  But you forgot to mention that however slow it may be, 3 wheeling always looks cool  ;D
It is highly likely that the above post was produced with a drippy jowl.

JG4tr

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Re: B Class
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2008, 10:48:01 AM »
Indeed it does! It also brings back fond memories of a certain VW rabbit that I used to punish back in my youth.  :D

Snyder005

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Re: B Class
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2008, 09:25:46 PM »
Interesting build.  My Celica now has some competition (besides R2P Blackbird).  And if need be I might unleash my B-Class missiles, including a CR-x that's somewhere in my garage.  Maybe between the TVR Sagaris, and the Cobalt, i cant seem to find those guys.

Snyder005

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Re: B Class
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2008, 03:37:36 PM »
After testing the CR-x, i find that the massive understeer and lack of turn-in caused by the 40/1 ARB's is costing you time.  In comparison, my missile 'Vette is now running 1/40 ARB's (still testing it though).  This is do to the understeer caused by full downforce.  I use this set-up differently.

The 40 part of the ARB is too hold the back end in place, so it's not too loose, when cornering.  then, with the 1 ARB you allow the front of the car to move freely.  This is especially necessary for FWD cars, as the front wheels need the extra grip, and they understeer. 

I've never attempted the opposite of this, becauses (as i was assured by the CR-X) i believed it would be too stiff in the front. 

But everyone has their own driving styles. 

JG4tr

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Re: B Class
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2008, 04:12:16 PM »
Could easily be a difference in driving style. I've not experienced a severe understeer or turn-in problems but, you might attack corner entry harder than I do in a missile car so, that might explain it.

As you alluded to, it is basically the same FWD-1/40 theory in reverse. My implimentation of it was to get the missile-critical rear tires to maintain the best possible contact but, I suspect that a very similar effect would be achieved with a 1/40 as well.

I haven't done much a/b testing with this one to see what else might be even faster because its been so successful for me as is but, I may get around to it one of these days. If you happen to find something that you like better in the meantime, I'd love to see what you end up with.

Thanks for taking the time to try it out and provide feedback. Sometimes I learn something about a car just from not having driven it for awhile so, for me, its always good to get a fresh perspective.

Snyder005

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Re: B Class
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2008, 03:33:40 PM »
It's a definite example of different driving styles.  I prefer a "point-and-shoot" missile, where it is loose enough in the front to get me pointed in the right direction, as fast as possible, but still keeps the end from breaking loose. 

I haven't gotten a chance to try out the newest mod. to my 'Vette, (the use of 1/40) but i believe it will solve some of the understeer problems that were slowing me down during my hot lapping attack on Road Atlanta.  Hopefull next time i get on, i'll be able to retake my top 5 position on the board (darn headyman and greeksniper have now passed me)

SIDENOTE:  You haven't caught my Celica on Road Atlanta yet, but the good news is (bad for me that is) that using your set-up i was able to beat my time by .5 in just a few laps, so i'm sure that you'll be passing me pretty soon. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 03:35:21 PM by Snyder005 »

JG4tr

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Re: B Class
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2008, 04:42:11 PM »
Your top ten in A class is already VERY impressive. I've been racking up alot of top 100's lately but, have not yet demonstrated top 10 level speed other than a D class run at Maple Valley in a 206 back in October. At the time it was good enough for 9th but has since been pushed back to 32nd and wouldn't have made it into the top ten at all were it not for the wipe.

Road Atlanta was one track that I kinda breezed through during my Exhibition runs. A recent look at my times point to me being able to reclaim about a minute of time across all 10 classes when I finally do go back. It was also the first of the power tracks that I ran and the first place I ever ran the CRX. The tune was alot more rough then, being freshly hatched and all. I'll be curious to see what it will do when  I go back to it.

Snyder005

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Re: B Class
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2008, 09:30:00 PM »
I noticed that the 40/1 set-up works miracles on a Chevelle.  I stumbled on a downloadable set-up tonight that was running maximum tire pressure and 40/1 ARB and immediately started setting top 100 times in the 2 laps i would run on the tracks (course i didn't find this set-up till i was nearly done with the speed tracks and i'm not one to backtrack). 

As for the Stingray, i'm gunna scrap my tune and begin from scratch (but i'm saving the gearing).   

JG4tr

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Re: B Class
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2008, 03:52:39 PM »
Scrap?!  With a tune that sets a top ten time, I think I'd hang onto that but, I like that fact that you're not satisfied with what you've got already.

One of the reasons for me doing this is to encourage open discussion of all of our ideas, tools and techniques, new or old. I hope that by doing so, we all get a chance to try out and learn some new things that allow us to go faster and enjoy the game more.

After you had mentioned the push in the CRX, I did take an hour or two to do a little experimentation on it. If I changed my driving style a bit, I could get it to push as you described and while increasing the toe to more typical levels did improve the steering, it wasn't a true solution.

I also tried out a 1/40 bar version and while I could now get excellent turning, the stiff rear suspension caused the traction control to kick in so easily, that it completely neutered the car. I haven't gone back to do any more experimentation yet but, I hope that I'm able to find a happy medium, maybe with something more like a 30/10 arrangement.

Once again, thanks for your input!

Snyder005

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Re: B Class
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2008, 09:35:51 PM »
I'm gunna take another look at your tune, as i'm adjusting to the stiffness of the set-up on the Chevelle, so i'm thinking that the driving style should carry over to the CR-X.  I guess i was to adjusted to a loose set-up. 

I'm gunna save the current 'Ray tune, but i'm gunna start from scratch to see if I can come up with something better.  I redrove the car tonight and adjusted to it and set a couple good times with it, but i noticed that my set-up is much harder to drive than the set-up for the Chevelle, which feels more solid.