Author Topic: Muscle Inc Class Development.  (Read 5493 times)

Blooze

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Muscle Inc Class Development.
« on: November 12, 2007, 07:05:32 AM »
This thread is for discussing development of Muscle Car classes to run under the Muscle Inc. Banner.

Part of the idea is to develop Muscle Cars as viable contenders in the respective classes - and not just Hp Rockets for the Nissan Roundy Round.

The first criterian will be the individual classes, D-400; C-550 (note classes B and A are pretty well handled already - there are no plans at this time to take the old cars to S class.)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 07:20:11 AM by Blooze »
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Drift2XL

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 07:52:48 PM »
Whew!

I didn't want to be part of an S Class Missile festival. I think that class belongs to the Supercar-AWD set.

We could try a street stock type of class. C Class, street tires, minimal mods, possibly no aero. Kind of a G-Machine deal. It might be worth a look.

D class, that's tough. There's not much down there but FWD. Could have the FTC down there.....wait 911 RS is C Class. Forget that.

One of the problems with the old cars in D Class is the power is there. The tires are just crap. I know how Blooze feels about overweight RWD cars. Both C and D class are going to be heavy cars. It would move from a focus on tuning to a focus on driver skill, IMO.
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Blooze

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 08:22:33 PM »
I have kept promising myself that I would try to run a Z28 or GT-500 in D but have yet to.  That is probably some of the stuff that will be documented in this thread.  What happens when we try these cars in D and C and if it is worth the effort to try do something like the Classic B or ACL cars.

:) $
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TheJohnNewton

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 08:27:21 PM »
I'm semi-confused as to what the goal is here.  Is it to place old muscle as high as possible on the boards or is this more like Muscle Inc. B class except for D and C?  

If you want to place old muscle high on the boards I don't think you can avoid the high hp rockets for certain tracks and that's not just limited to Nissan.  I actually tried a Chevelle rocket this weekend and it does prove to be an interesting challenge though maybe more challenge than some want.   ;D   But for some tracks they are simply the best car for the job.

If it's more aimed at Muscle Inc. challenges then maybe you would limit hp?  I've been playing a bit with a 500-KR in D class on the Ring (as noted in the thread in Spanky's).  I was also thinking of trying a Z28.  These are more grip oriented builds than HP rockets.  They are fun but will never challenge the rocket cars for best times on certain tracks.
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TheJohnNewton

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 08:57:13 PM »
I see Blooze snuck a post in while I was typing.  It looks like you are thinking of doing something like Fit started with the 500-KR.  That would be fun.
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Blooze

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 09:00:53 PM »
I guess I am looking to see if what was accomplished in B, can be done in D and C.  It may be a pipe dream.  It was early when I was writing that.  :D

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2007, 09:29:21 PM »
From an "outsider's" point of view, D and C class is very much the domain of the rocket spec... which I frankly consider an exploit and won't use. I'd love to do more with classes and tracks where you don't normally see a lot of Chargers and Chevelles, though.

Maybe an interesting approach would be to try and get M-Inc cars onto the non-typical twisty leaderboards? I don't think many people would take notice of muscle cars doing well on the straighter high speed tracks, but the more technical tracks would surely be a challenge that could raise some eyebrows.

Hoplee

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2007, 10:16:12 PM »
you're going to need slicks to get to the top of the twisty tracks
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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2007, 10:49:48 PM »
Muscle Cars in D-class.  It does sound like a pipe dream.  With roughly 67 PI points to play with the available parts are very sparce.  You need to start with a solid platform.  The 500KR seemed like a good all around performer and that's why I chose it over the Z/28.  Also because I already have 2 Camaro's.  None of the other cars had the right balance of accel and top speed that I was looking for when tackling the Ring.  Finding what you can live without is key.  What platform parts are unnecessary, how much value can you squeeze into a car, and how well can you drive a compromise build?  It does take a bit of driver skill to harness power over handling or you can spend the PI on 'OK' tires and your still in a similar boat.  I enjoy it almost as I enjoy my Solstice.  I know its not the fastes and hotlapping won't make it shine but consistancy wins races and I can pull online wins out with either the KR or the Solstice.  Not by being the fastest but by running similar times on longe runs.


Muscle Cars in C-class.  Very similar to D-class but the 227 PI points go a lot longer towards a fast car.  Think Muscle Inc without the full weight reduction or high HP on standardized tires.  I'm begining to realize that the muscle's can do well on several of the snakes.  I personally haven't spent much time in C-class and I still only have 3-4 cars built for C-class and one tuned for it.  Unfortunately it isn't a Muscle its a BMW M3.  Purely a grip build and I enjoyed driving it around Maple Valley a bit ago. 

These cars start out very low and they have a bad stigma surrounding them.  There is a ton of potential to make them fast but the first thing everyone else see's is a missle, and unfair advantage, and a lack of handling.  I get more crap for using one of them than I would for using a Mugen Integra or a 207.  The only difference is, if I use a Mugen the room is instantly full of them.  If I pull out a muscle, I get ten yards of crap or booted from the room.  They are the wrong side of a double standard that even T10 tries to sweep under the carpet and there is seemingly no way around it.

I think that is why I gravitated towards the TVR's.  Still a ton-o-power, not the greatest handling off the block, but none of the stigma.  Pull out a Tuscan, or a Sagaris and noone will think bad thoughts only an easy win.  Chase someone down with a low HP grip build in a TVR and you may have to deal with a leaderboard car the next race but you get to stay.  I'll gladly use a Muscle car in any class I've just got a few projects too many to go QR-ing any at the moment.  Maybe it is time to try a lower class Muscle build or two.  If nothing else it could be an exploratory mission.  Hmmm.....
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bimmerlovere39

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2007, 11:22:04 PM »
I ran a muscle series in C.  I think that there is alot of potential there, expecially on Y-Rated tires.
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Blooze

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2007, 07:22:46 AM »
Imagine, if you would, a young boy - 16 maybe, just got his driver's license.  He has been consuming Hot Rod and Racing magazines like they were popcorn for 2 years.  A car nut.  You.  Me.  And one day he is roaming around on the Family place - bored out of his mind, while Mom and Dad visit with Gramma.  He goes into the barn where the equipment used to be kept.  The tractors are all gone now - mostly back to the bank.  There is a small Ford with a brush hog hooked up to it, and and old side rake and baler.  The new round bales turned those into scrap iron.

And, whoa... what is that?  "Holy Shit! Where did that come from?"  It is a mess for sure.  But there it is, a '68 GTO.  The engine looks like it is half assed intact.  What?  a 400 I think.  Still a Pontiac tho...  lots of stroke.


You run back to the house, into the kitchen where they are all visiting over coffee and punkin pie.  You get a piece of pie and nibble at it while you await your chance.  The old man has taught you good - you don't interrupt.  You figet, let 'em know you want to say something.  "What?" you are finally asked.

"Gramma? What's the deal with the old Pontiac up in equipment shed?"

"I don't know," she responds, "ask your father.  It's his."

You turn to your Dad.  "It was my first car." he says.  "Hell, we started our family in the backseat of that thing".  He winks at your Mom and she turns crimson and shoots him a warning glance.

"Does it run?"

"It used to.  Probably needs a battery now.  I thought you were wanting to get that Integra down at Nelson's Acura."

"Well yeah, but that is pretty expensive and the old GTO is sort of cool."

So after a couple weekends, and a lot of the money you had saved up for the Integra, you get it running.  People laugh at your junker, but they don't do much more than laugh.  You can leave most of them in tire smoke at any light in town.

Then one day you are busted.  Reckless driving -accelleration exhibition they call it.  Insurance is going to go through the roof, the old man is pissed.  The only thing that can save your ass is that the cops have a program.  Kids who get busted street racing have a chance to become involved in a real racing program.  They have a test track West of town.  You can go out there with your car and learn to really drive, not just peel out at a stop sign.  And once a month there are races out there.  Real races... and you can win money...

*********
That is what I am thinking of when I think of D and C classed Muscle cars.  Doing the best with what you got.

From an "outsider's" point of view, D and C class is very much the domain of the rocket spec... which I frankly consider an exploit and won't use. I'd love to do more with classes and tracks where you don't normally see a lot of Chargers and Chevelles, though.
Exactly.  First there is the "image" of Muscle cars.  For that reason alone I would say that the Chevelle and the Charger were not eligible for either of these classes.  There is just too much "stink" on them.



I'll gladly use a Muscle car in any class I've just got a few projects too many to go QR-ing any at the moment.  Maybe it is time to try a lower class Muscle build or two.  If nothing else it could be an exploratory mission.  Hmmm.....
Aye, there is the rub.  I too have too much going on in my garage to take on another project.  That is why this a thread instead of a challenge.  :D

But after the decks start to clear a bit, I think this would be cool.  Perhaps we can take another step toward clearing their name. 

And if the Cobra can be fun, how much trouble can a Z-28 on stock or Y tires be?

:) $
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 11:08:48 AM by Blooze »
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TheTechnobear

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2007, 09:25:49 AM »
love the story blooze :) and the car paint job too!

i dont worry to much about if the car could be competitive or trying to prove that muscle cars are not rocket ships only.
... as long as you have fun with them, thats what counts.

the great thing about here, is that because there are some gr8 tuners and drivers you know that the times that are being set are good for that car/setup... and thats what makes the challenge - regardless of what the T10 leaderboard may or may not show.

personally, i love trying out some more of the esoteric cars, not because i think they can be competitive , but just because they are there :)

Tonka Crash

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2007, 11:20:32 AM »
In D class I have a Chevelle bullet I built only to stay competitive racing online.  This has my best times for Sunset Infield Short, Nissan Speedway and New York.  I also have a Challenger that has my best time on Sebring.  I think wider tires and a clutch upgrade were about all I could fit on it.  The Challenger is an odd duck since it's drag is so high that it's seems to only be useful for drag racing corner to corner where top speed won't get much over 100-110 mph.

In C class I have built a grip tuned Camaro Z28 that I've used a few times online and surprised people that I wasn't rear ending everyone on corner entry.  But it needs work to get competitive.  I haven't run it in a while, but from what I recall it just seemed too heavy to stick with the more typical light C class cars on twisty tracks, but didn't have enough power to fend off bullet cars on power tracks.

In D class, particularly, and also C, to some extent, I just don't think the muscle cars have enough PI available to balance the stock power with adequate grip for a good all around car.  They are silver bullets for certain tracks, but it seems B class is were you can finally afford appropriate tires and get a good balance.
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Hoplee

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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2007, 11:57:05 AM »
The FCT cars can do quite well in D and C Class... ;D

In the lower classes I tend to run FCT cars (surprise!) but I do have hopes for some of the American cars that aren't muscle, like the Pontiac Slowstice.

I have higher hopes for running muscle cars in A-Class. The Cobra is a surprisingly competent machine. The Stingray is kind of a leaderboard car. The ZR-1 is an underutilized platform for this class. If you consider the Viper GTS-ACR to be a modern muscle car, it can dominate the short and twisties.

I should also mention that I've been beaten by a Cobra in S-Class on Laguna Seca. It wasn't a missile, it was just well driven. I was in a car with a ton more grip, but lap times are what matter and he had me there.

I guess my point is this: Muscle Cars are only versatile in classes above C. Even though the handling ratings and numbers aren't that great, they can turn good lap times in B-S on tracks that aren't simple drag races. If we plan to attack the lower classes in the muscle cars, we'll most likely be building the bullet cars that have given us such a bad name.

EDIT: I would love to be proven wrong!
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Re: Muscle Inc Class Development.
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2007, 12:02:07 PM »
So how about we pick a class, a track and whatever restrictions you guys want and start this experiment?

RE: Not using particular cars because of some perceived sheeple stigma.  Unless you're running for political office, to limit yourself based on the asinine group think of a a bunch of dolts makes no sense.  If we want to set some restrictions for this experiment that's fine but using stigma as a restriction just doesn't sit well.  Requiring a specific car we want to test, a particular tire type, a hp restriction, a weight restriction, those types of things make sense.  Moral superiority of one car over another?  We're smarter than that aren't we?

If I'm reading this right the goal here is to have fun with muscle cars in the lower classes and to see what they can do right?  If they are not at the top of the leaderboars that's ok.  As Blooze said it's to "do the best with what you got."
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 12:08:46 PM by TheJohnNewton »
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