LMMS: Late Model Muscle Series

[Drift2XL]

The "Glory Days" of American road racing are back. Welcome to the the Late Model Muscle Series. (LMMS)

The old cars are getting hard to find, and a whole lot of people are to scared to let their $40,000 muscle cars out on a track to get bent up. So let's get some new ones that we aren't afraid to get scratched up.

Right now the cars list:
'07 Shelby GT500
'05 Ford Mustang GT
'00 Ford Mustang Cobra R
Dodge Challenger Concept
'06 Dodge Charger SRT8
Dodge Viper ACR
Chrysler Crossfire SRT6
Cadillac CTS-V
Vauxhall Monaro
Pontiac GTO
'02 Chevrolet Camaro SS
Lexus SC430
Lexus Foose/Millen IS430 project
Panoz Esperante GTLM
Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06
Saleen S281

Rules:
Cars must not exceed A Class 850 PI maximum.
Cars must weigh more than 3000 lbs. 3000 lbs minimum.
Cars must race on slick tires. There is no tire sponsor, so any brand you wish to choose. But must be slicks.
Cars must not have more than 600 horsepower. If your car is found to have more, expect penalties.


There are number and evaluations further down in this thread. Choose your weapons carefully and have fun out on the track.

Hope to see you racing.

[bimmerlovere39]

This should be fun!

[Robs]

this indeed sounds fun and a god excuse to buy a challenger concept

[Drift2XL]

There should be an update on Sun.

I'm aiming to spend most of the day wringing out the possible list.

I will need a little help. I need somebody with a little time to run out the Challenger.

[Hoplee]

I've got a new Challenger built out already but I won't have time to run it until saturday. If I can be of help, just let me know.

[Drift2XL]

I've run out and tested five cars. I have been using a 3200 lb min weight limit with an A class limit. I have built all the cars, (and some others?) and slicks with a 575 HP limit is achievable.

Right now, builds are slicks, front bumper and rear spoiler, without rear bumper.

Times are geting close to each other, dependant on driver skill. Had to test under race conditions, bank roll hitting single digit thousands twice during rebuilds. So "benchmarks" are at the first two races of the A class championship. MV full Rev. Road Atlanta long.

             Mustang GT        '06 Charger       '07 GT 500       Monaro         Foose IS430
MV race   6:21.644            6:22.606          6:21.456         6:18.920         6:20.xxx
MV lap     1:32.211            1:32.109          1:32.735         1:31.651         1:32.309
RA race    7:09.661            7:19.391          7:10.395         7:15.590         7:13.991
Ra lap      1:24.516            1:24.860          1:23.995         1:26.164         1:23.632

Charger is a porky 2600lbs 3600lbs. Can't get any lower without going under 3000. And hard into S class. 

Both Mustangs are a test of throttle control, especially the GT. Both have SC's

Monaro is a grip build and has the 2nd lowest HP of all the cars built. Handles well

The IS430 was a WTH build and turns out to be great. 2nd best RA time(to an NSX). Sounds good, reminds me of a 4V Cobra.

The five tested have my five best race times and hot lap times at MV Rev, despite some driving errors. Times should be closer than they are.

Also built and ready to be tested

Panoz Esperante
Pontiac GTO
Camaro SS
Caddy CTS-V
Lexus SC430
Chrysler Crossfire
And possibly a boosted Infinity G35

Feedback on the US "Imports" mainly the G35.
I think the Lexus's fit in pretty well. They fit the heavy spirit of the class. All (except one) are in the NA market. The only reason the Monaro is in here is its the equivilent of the last GTO.

Coming back with a RWT 10 lap QR and specs for each once the prelim shakedowns finish.

Will keep posted.

[Blooze]

Looks like a lot of good work there... good job!!

A few things...

• Is that a typo on the Porky Charger line (2600?)  If not, I am confused.
• Is the Challenger not included for a reason?
• I am serious.  I would like to buy a copy of your California Kid Shelby for $1 Mil credits.

$

[Drift2XL]

Oh dang it.

Yeah, the Charger is sitting at 3600 lbs. Next weight redux takes it under 3000. The rest of the cars are bunched in around 3200-3400. I think that the Mustangs are next heaviest at 3400+. Surpisingly both the Mustangs are almost the same in everything except the Shel gets wider tires. Even the weights are within 30 lbs of each other.

I don't have the XBox online so I don't have any of the DLC's. That's why I asked if someone else would do the run out for the Challenger.

Wow, A mil. Well, I just give it to you whenever I get Live. Its just going to take awhile. I got to put on a roof and other little things to the house before I can splurge on myself and get DSL. I haven't claimed the NSX from Fit because of that. I really like that paint.

At the rate I'm going, it's going to be a looong time.

I've raced the Panoz at MV and it may be too fast. It crushed the lap record by .6. It ran a 1:31.068. I have raced that car before and it may just be a comfortable car to me. But not by that much.

It may not have the top end at RA, but it might not need it the way it feels. Its got great grip and a well balanced feel. I can get a better, reliable late apex at higher speeds.

[Blooze]

Oh yeah.  Sorry, I keep fogetting that you aren't "hooked up"...

The offer of a $1Mil was more an offer to replenish your larder and help you get through the somewhat expensive development phase.  I am pretty well aware that all I need do is ask and you would gift me the car, a fact that does not weigh lightly with me.  I hope you feel the same about anything that is in my garage.

As for the Challenger.  Right now I am ass deep in Civics and Willis is getting cranky.  As soon as I get that project taken care of, I will hop right on it and get you the numbers on the Challenger Concept car.  Just to make sure I haven't misread, not read, or had another old age related mental "run amok", the specs you are proposing are...

• A850
• Not to weigh less than 3200 pounds

$

[Drift2XL]

You are correct. I have updated the first post to show the mods.

Right now I have a problem with the HP limits. I am coming out with a spead of 100 HP between the lowest A class and the highest. I was hoping for a little wiggle room for upgrading power. But it seems that the GTO has only 460 and the Mustangs are sitting over 550. Yet the speed sliders aren't that far off.

In fact some of the lower power cars have a higher top speed number. And some of the HP/weight numbers aren't coming out as evenly as I would like. But so far its kind of balanced.

I wanted to give a little choice in builds. The Mustangs are really powerful and it takes about as much throttle control as the M Inc. cars. Especially the GT. I'm using full DF to get a best grip case scenario. Well as much rear as it takes to get my balanced feel.

I'm off to see if I can finish this tonight.

[Drift2XL]

Whew!  Just got finished on the prelim builds. Time for some evaluations.

Shelby GT 500
547 HP
495 TQ
3403 lbs
6.1 speed
5.4 brake
5.3 handling
285/315  tires
MV 6:21.456
     1:32.735
RA 7:10. 395
     1:23.995
Power, power, power. Throttle control is needed to get great times.

Mustang GT
553 HP
512 TQ
3,377 lbs
6.4 speed
5.3 brake
5.2 handling
245/275 tires
MV   6:21.644
       1:32.211
RA    7:09.661
       1:24.516
More of a handful than the Shelby. Needed to put on the SC to get to the top of A Class. Really undertired. Close to a "missile." Most HP and TQ out of them all.

Dodge Charger '05
543 HP
501 TQ
3604 lbs
6.1 speed
5.7 brake
5.4 handling
275/285 tire
MV    6:22.606
        1:32.109
RA     7:19.391
        1:24.860
Heaviest car of the bunch. But really doesn't feel that way. Can run good times. Great get up and go.

Holden Monaro .... wait that's a Vauxhall
465 HP
425 TQ
3208 lbs
5.9 speed
5.8 brake
5.5 handling
275/275 tire
MV    6:18.920
        1:31.651
RA     7:15.562
        1:26.164
Very competant handling car. Need to retest DF balance. Despite 3rd lowest HP, times are close. RA is driver failure. More power should make it better on the longer tracks.

Lexus Foose IS430 Project
477 HP
378 TQ
3220 lbs
6.4 speed
5.5 brake
5.4 handling
245/285 tires
MV    6:20.xxx
        1:32.309
RA     7:13.991
        1:23.632
Held the RA top time for over half of qualifying. Good balanced car. Great exhaust note. A welcome surprise.

Lexus SC430
489 HP
448 TQ
3323 lbs
6.5 speed
5.5 brake
5.4 handling
255/275 tires
MV    6:27.301
        1:32.537
RA     7:12.160
        1:23.532
One of the best top ends. Times are misleading, not fully shook down yet. Feels like it can be competetive.

Cadillac CTS-V
503 HP
467 TQ
3380 lbs
6.2 speed
5.7 brake
5.4 handling
275/275 tires
MV    6:13.548
        1:31.154
RA     7:24.398
        1:23.576
Ask Fit. Good balance. Maybe the best all round of the bunch.

Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6
514 HP
428 TQ
3210 lbs
6.1 speed
5.5 brake
5.3 handling
235/275 tires
MV    6:19.842
        1:31.770
RA     7:21.995
        1:23.640
Took some time to get used to a short wheelbase car. Least likely to succeed. Prove me wrong Hek. But hot lap times are there

Infinty G35
496 HP
423 TQ
3332 lbs
6.5 speed
5.5 brake
5.4 handling
245/275 tires
MV    6:15.061
        1:31.015
RA     7:09.432
        1:24.090
Might be too good. Must run boost. Very consistant. 2nd best RA race time despite mid pack hot lap times. Only car to not favor one track or the other.

Ponitiac GTO
462 HP
451 TQ
3221 lbs
6.2 speed
5.7 brake
5.5 handling
275/275 tires
MV    6:16.758
        1:31.050
RA     7:09.404
        1:23.905
2nd lowest power. Good handling. Same as G35 at RA. Will need to trade for power at the longer tracks.

Chevrolet Camaro SS
498 HP
458 TQ
3200 lbs
5.9 speed
5.6 brake
5.4 handling
295/315 tires
MV    6:15.236
        1:30.808
RA     7:11.624
        1:24.144
Riding the ragged edge of weight. Had to up the rim size to fit it. Best at MV.

Panoz Esperante GTLM
473 HP
413 TQ
3336 lbs
6.0 speed
5.7 brake
5.5 handling
275/285 tires
MV    6:22.688
        1:31.068
RA     7:12.733
        1:24.553
Also another car that could be outlawed. It may be too good. Not great top end.

Dodge Viper ACR
460 HP
500 TQ
3396 bs
5.5 speed
6.1 brake
5.9 handling
295/335 tires
MV    6:18.142
        1:30.835
RA     7:14.786
        1:25.654
Total dog on the top end. Didn't even hit 150 at the end of RA backstretch. Most likely to be kicked out. Just too much grip. No choices in build. Probable total domination of twisty, short tracks.

All cars are built with all race handling parts, Goodyear slicks, and for grip first. And most have the same susp. tune with a difference in DF balance depending on tire.

Looking through the numbers there are a couple with alot of alternative builds. One with no alt builds. And a few more without many choices. One more to test but will have to wait for someone to run the Challenger Concept. Hop and Blooze have shown interest in it. And Hek just needs a reason to run his Mopar. Hoping for better comparable numbers than the Viper.

I'm thinking of running a QR for the heck of it to check how the big power/speed numbers start to check out. No big build list this time just numbers. Some of the early numbers are going to be down compared to the last ones. The driver started to get back the feel at the tracks. It seemed that the next car was getting faster than the one before. So I noted the ones that are suspect in the wrap up.

[Blooze]

You've done a hell of a job here Drift! 

I seem to be running into the "driver getting better" problem ( ) with that herd of Civics (8 of 'em) we're running in the current challenge.   It is like the old saw - "First liar doesn't stand a chance."

I am really interested in seeing the QR on these.

Good work!  I love this shit, I really do...

$

[Hoplee]

PLEASE don't kick the Viper, I looove that car! The 'dog top end' is dependent on the aero that you added. The car will stretch it's legs without the wings.

I'll run some laps on MV and RA with the Challenger for you after I make sure I understand the build rules.

[Hoplee]

OK, the build guidelines as I understand them:

min weight 3200lbs
Goodyear Racing Slicks
FORZA brand front bumper
FORZA brand rear wing
NO AERO ON REAR BUMPER
PI Index 850
possible 575hp limit

please correct me soon if I'm getting any of this wrong.

The Challenger I had sitting around had a FORZA rear bumper on it and race weight reduction. The curb weight of the car was 2989lbs and the engine was stock. The next step backwards in weight reduction adds over 600 lbs to the car, so this is going to be one of the 'porkers' given the guidelines above.

[Blooze]

Here's my first set of numbers.  Yeah, I know - I'm a bit embarassed with them myself.  You might want to do a bit of extrapolating and see how my numbers relate toward yours.  That may be able to salvage something from these runs.

'06 Challenger Concept

HP:	494
Torque:	488
Weight:	3556
Speed:	5.7
Accel:	5.5
Brake:	5.8
Handling:	5.6
Tires:	285/295
MV Rev:	6:37.026
	97.422
Rd Atl:	7:28.482
	87.224

Quick Rank

Atlanta Short:	56.597
Sebring Short:	75.017
Tsukuba:	57.648
Score:	189.262

This is with no tuning other than initial setup.  The Wb is set to 54.5.  The car seems to handle well enough - but let's face it boys and girls... Overweight RWD cars are not my strong suit.  I do, however, like driving this car.  So, maybe I will practice a little in it for future events.

$