Author Topic: BBQ Lancia in B minor  (Read 1337 times)

feuerdog

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BBQ Lancia in B minor
« on: April 08, 2010, 12:29:41 PM »
In developing my calcs I run into the problem of usually having only myself as a ready source of reference.
I can hope that if I focus on being as open-minded as possible about my builds and tunings that through sheer saturation of variety and generic mindset I can be of some good to others, most of whom have differing techniques, traits, and stylings.
So, every now and again its good to dig into somebody elses toy box and see what their toys look like. "The spice of life", and all that stuff...

BBQ Pete's B-class Lancia Delta AWD

Evaluation -
The build - It's a fairly typical short track grip setup, with slicks and aero, full weight and chassis upgrades, and just a handful of slight power options.

The tune - Nothing too surprising, but the toe settings were an eye opening.
The gearing is set well and best uses the mid-range torque of this little engine. It "scoots" quite well at lower speeds.
It'll do 140mph+ but the pull from around 110mph on where it hits top gear does take a bit. This is a short track car.
The suspension is good and solid, and heavily damped, with a firm rear ARB bias.
If I had to guess where the "tuning center" of the suspension was i'd say just forward, somewhere around the ashtray maybe.

The drive (Positano A) - The Lancia launched off the line very well with little drama, and before I knew it I was in the first "S" corners.....
...where I promptly understeer/drifted straight in to the wall. With a quick bounce and little more hesitation I continued.
Handling overall was very good, the stiff and well damped suspension provided a "glued" feeling of traction to the bumpy track.
The caster setting played a large part in giving rapid response to the stiff front end, so initial turn-in was direct.
Steady state cornering is where I ran into problems though, and the understeer popped up again.
It wanted to be late braked, hard and straight, coasted through the apex, and then aggressively exited. Not a bad way to take a corner but there was something about it that just felt too tight. I am a trail-braking driver, but this car did not seem setup for that. Cresting corners amplifed the understeer issue for me. Aggressive, through-the-apex, exits revealed a neutral balance of raw acceleration.

I ran the track 5 times, in a combination of aggressive, moderate, and controlled runs. Once I knew how to handle the car a bit better the times started dropping. ABS off, auto-shift trans, with a controller I finally ran Pete's tune down to a 101.xx time, but there was potential for me to take it down another second or two with more practice.

Overall, a solid build, nice paintjob, and a good tune. I can't fault it, but I like a different feel in my cars.

Question - Do drive with a controller Pete?


My V7 tune - slightly modified.
The V7 tune I applied to the car came out surprisingly similar to Pete's tune in some ways, but in others it was totally different.
The calc springs ended up being a slight bit softer but with a similar balance.
ARB's were relatively close in value, but biased more heavily to the rear.
I used Pete's aero settings.
The gearing got a slight tweak to try and use more of the engines torque.
The camber was similar.
Braking was similar with a slight variation in balance.
Diffs were very close.
Pete ran slightly lower tire pressures.

The big tuning changes....
Toe settings - The calc uses very slight toe settings, the same as it ever has.
Damping - The calc provided numbers the were lower than half of all Pete's values, AND were biased in the opposite direction, front-to-rear.
Caster - Pete had 5.4, the calc ran a 6.2

A quick comparison of Benchmarking stats revealed no major differences.
Lateral G stats remained the same.
The gearing tweak I made improved accel. times, but the braking tweak I made lengthened stopping distances.

The drive -
The suspension balance point shifted rearward with the calc tune, and my previous understeer observations were history. The lighter damping values brought a bit more chassis movement into the car, but it still felt locked down to me, with maybe a touch more bump compliance.
On my first lap it ran a 99 second pass.
Of course it ran better for me with my tune though, I am very used to what my tunes "feel" like.
The thing that surprised me was the capability of the build.
On first glance it seemed over powered(330hp+) and under gripped(225 wide slicks),....but I think the aero actually helps more than I gave it credit for even at these lower speeds.

Anyways, I need to send the back to Pete, and get an opinion from the person who matters here,....the driver.
It's on it's way Pete...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 12:39:17 PM by feuerdog »

feuerdog

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2010, 01:02:09 PM »
Yeah,...so I just took your B-class Lotus Evora(your tune) out for a spin on Nurburgring GP short.

I was square into the 1:34's with little effort. The build feels underpowered/over gripped, but the tune is all win.
I doubt I can improve it but we'll see....

EDIT: Retuned and returned. What a great car and build. I ran 1:34's with my tune too, just do me a favor and drive the car before you look at the settings. It may feel a touch less tight, but it should handle well.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 01:33:29 PM by feuerdog »

BarbecuePete

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 07:26:44 PM »
Thanks Feuer, I've got some notes on the Delta tonight, I should get some time with it and the Evora tomorrow and get a write up.. Just quickly though..

I use a controller..

Also this...

Quote
Aggressive, through-the-apex, exits revealed a neutral balance of raw acceleration

For me that has been the key to the quicker times with the tighter corners, im able to get on the throttle really early and the car just pulls out of the corner, it doesn't have the understeer on full throttle corner exit you usually get with AWD. I think because of a combination of the diff and toe settings, the car just wants to turn. also I run manual with clutch and use a lot of down shift engine braking to aid weight transfer.

Did you keep a copy of the car?

« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 07:29:13 PM by BarbecuePete »
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feuerdog

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2010, 08:28:46 AM »
I agree with you on the quote Pete, the car handled great.

The understeer issue was only an issue for my driving style, which I could quickly adjust for with a slight change in technique. The word "deliberate" comes to mind, in that if I knew exactly where the car was going to be before I put it there then I would have to deliberately place that car where it needed to be before it got there,....
In other words, if you totally trusted your own abilities and the cars capabilities at the same time, then the car was precise.
However, I am not precise, so I tend to have to compensate in other ways(tuning flexibility/generics).

Based on the times you can do with that car, your driving is smoother and more precise than my own, so the tune suits your style very well. Me, not so much.
I overcook entries, trail-brake too much, miss turn-ins, etc. ....and knowing that tune my cars to adapt to these characteristics.

I suspect that when you drive my tune that your times will be similar, but not an improvement. The car may feel slightly looser, but forgiving, and yet lack the precision your driving style needs to lay down a faster time,....maybe.

I did not make a copy of the car, but I do plan to make my own version of it.

EDIT - Upon further thought......The high positive toe settings can only work with the stiffly sprung and firmly damped setup you have. The aero doesn't hurt the combo either. You're right about the alignments helping it turn too. By loading the rear end with the throttle you are applying a rotational thrust to the outer rear corner, and a stabilizing thrust to the inner rear.
The result is a very controlled throttle steering effect,...but unlike what you would use for "drifting".
The key to it's effectiveness is retaining a state of "grip".
The smoothness of driver input is important too. it has to be smooth to retain grip just because of the stiffness of the suspension,...but without the stiff suspension the weight transfer would be too much too, and the inner tires would loose the ability to stabilize the grip.
It's a very "sweet spot" kind of tune with a need for unique control inputs.

The reason the car understeered for me was because I was trying to oversteer it with the throttle. The stabilizing effect of the tune forced the car to understeer before it would oversteer. It's very tricky combination of values to put together, but it works great if you drive it right. I wasn't driving it right.
The more I think about it the more brilliant it is.

Here's the catch, it's a short track tune. P2P or short distance/quick run hotlapping primarily.
It could be used for longer stints, but i'll bet tire pressure/heating becomes an issue eventually.
I'me not sure how it would handle the final sweeper of Tsukuba either, a sustained lateral G corner might make the car feel loose and slippy. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 08:56:56 AM by feuerdog »

BarbecuePete

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2010, 07:09:52 PM »
I think driving style has a lot to do with it, I think my driving is quite aggressive but you're not the first person to say that I must drive smoothly to get the most from my tunes... But I find it quite hard to judge my own driving because if I start to think about what i'm doing I crash... I guess you could say I drive on instinct.

My tune as it is does understeer in faster corners but I found that if I could get some weight transfer forwards just before I turned in it was much better. Once you feel the front grip you can get back on the power and accelerate through the corner.

Slower corners, hairpins especially are where it really comes alive... Braking deep into the corner, turn in and the nose bites and the rear rotates, get back on the power and it just pulls itself round and out of the corner.

So on to your tune...

I had a look at the tune first and noticed the changes you had made, the high caster was a suprise as was the soft damping, I expected the tune to understeer less than mine in faster corners so I took the car to Stage D at Kaido for a test run where mine had struggled with the fast section at the start of the stage.

First up I should let you know I went straight into running against my ghost so I was pushing right from the off which meant I had a lot of restarts but it helped me find the limits of the tune and really find out what it was like when pushed.

Start off and the first corner is a tight right hairpin, first thing I noticed was the car felt slower to turn in and when I tried to get on the throttle early like I could with my tune I understeered into the outside barrier.. Restart and it felt like I had to wait for the car to follow its arc through the corner and wait to get back on the throttle, once through those first 2 hairpins and into the fast section the car felt much better with good responsive turn in and solid grip. Time the car lost off the start in the hairpins it made up through there and I was usually just ahead of my old ghost up to near the last section where it drops downhill and into the tunnel.

That's where I had problems, when I tried to take the right hander off the crest quickly the car landed it really squirmed about as it landed and slid into the barrier. Also on the entry into the tunnel it would bottom out quite hard and with the stiff rear ARB the rear it would break loose easily so I couldn't quite carry the speed I wanted through that section and the ghost would come back past.

After a few runs I'd got a handle on the car and adjusted my driving style to suit, the main change was just waiting that little longer before getting back on the throttle out of a corner, if I could be paitent it was very quick and I could stay ahead of my ghost. what held me back from a very quick certified lap was that AWD push, I had to wait to get on the throttle on corner exit and that cost me time and a certified lap.. I did though get a rewind lap where I de-cert on the second to last corner of 1:50.486. thats 1/10th faster than my tune's certifed lap.

I think you hit the nail on the head though when you say about my tune being a dedicated P-2-P tune, I would much rather drive your tune if I was racing a circuit, its much more stable and consistant. Both tunes need a couple of tweaks and they could go even quicker, they are at different ends of the scale but very close in what times they are capable of it just depends on which tune suits you better...  I also think that more people would go quicker in your tune than would in mine.

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feuerdog

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2010, 12:54:11 PM »
Awesome feedback Pete, thank you very much.

While testing another couple of cars of mine, i've ben toying with a very slight rework of the damping rates.
Since rebound is based on bump in my calcs, a slight tweak of bump may do the trick.

If I do stiffen it up a hair it should fix some things you mentioned:
1. Improve turn-in response - stiffer initial feedback and response.
2. Higher rebound damping - less bounce and squirm, more stability, earlier throttle application.
3. Better launch and braking response.

Other notes....
- My diff settings were different than yours, so some of that AWD push could be adjusted for.
- My tune ran higher tire pressures than normal, and higher than yours. The slip/grip difference is slight, but its there.

Again, thanks so much for your feedback, and the compliments.

BarbecuePete

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 03:57:44 PM »
Glad to help Feuer, I'll send the car back over so you can apply the changes and i'll give it another run. I had the same thought as you that just a diff and tyre pressure tweak could be enough, I do notice a loss in grip if tyre pressures get too high and it was a change to the diff settings that really helped with my tune, I had the rear set higher and it was oversteering on exit when I got on the power, reduced it down and the back just stuck.

I got to take out the Evora today, it was fantastic. Took it to Nurburgring GP first for a shakedown and straight away I could feel the sharper front end through the stadium section and it had really nice balance, I was able to take the Schumacher S easily full throttle and carry good speed through the last chicane.

So I went to Stage D of kaido to see how it went against the Delta, behind off the line because of the AWD launch it gripped nicely through the first 2 hairpins and then flew through the following fast section and down into the tunnel section, it did bottom out quite a bit and that made the entry to the tunnel tricky with the back end wanting to step out.

It was really good through the bottom section too, grippy front end and great balance it turned in really well, I was able to get back on the power early and the car stuck to the road, it beat out the Lancia by 3/10ths and went 76th on the LB with a 1:50.277, one seriously quick car.

I ran it through the rest of the Targa afterwards but it couldn't quite keep up with the Delta on the other Kaido or Positano stages, that AWD launch was just too much for it. It still put down some great times though and at the Ring it felt really good with enough speed to overcome the launch advantage of the AWD.

My only slight gripe is the bottoming out which could throw it of course at times but that really is a minor thing in what is overall a great tune.  8)

« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 04:47:19 PM by BarbecuePete »
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feuerdog

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 02:56:02 AM »
Good stuff Pete.

I applied a small tweak to the bump calc, built a new car, and ran some tests on some existing tunes.
I think I can solve part of the bottoming out too.

I simply raised the bump calc by 1, which in turn modifies the rebound. The stiffness improves response, inhibits some of the suspension bottoming, and improves overall damping.

I built a Porsche 930 for the Targa and it did really well, even up against my AWD GTI. I'm afraid to retune the GTI or i'll never beat it with a RWD which has been my goal.

Your Lancia times are insane,...beating some of my bests by over 4 seconds?! I don't know how you do it, but i'm glad to help if I can.

BarbecuePete

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2010, 07:36:19 AM »
I'm not too sure how i've managed those times really either.. I wouldn't be too downhearted though, it's not like I can run those times all the time. There's a lot of clipped walls, spins and restarts apart from that one quick run that gets recorded.

I drive in cockpit view, No Assists, Manual with clutch and No line, so each time I start out I have to re-familierise myself with the course which takes a few runs, re-learning what gaps the car will fit through and where the grip is, it takes a few runs before i'm up to speed, pushing at the limit trying to beat a ghost its easy for it to go wrong.

I find I have peaks and troughs when trying to get a good time, that can get really annoying when you decert just at the end of a fast run and then restart only to hit the barrier in the first corner and have to start back up again...

I think the biggest help in setting the fast times on the P-2-P is the manual shifting, one thing you said about my tune was that it took a long time to reach top speed in 6th gear, something i've never noticed because of being able to run the engine way into the red before changing gear and only using 6th very little, I think on all the stages of Positano & Kaido I used 6th maybe twice, the reason being that the Delta will rev way beyond its redline so if i'm approaching a corner and just getting to the redline I can hold onto the gear i'm in rather than changing up and then changing straight back down again as I get on the brakes.

The main thing I think though once you have the course and an idea of the lines sorted is luck, i've clipped a few barriers before and not de-certed and i've watched my Stage A Positano run a few times and still can't belive how I didn't clip any walls on that run. There's a couple of times i'm just inches away and i'm trying to get a decent picture from the 2nd/3rd corner where i'm so close to the inside wall that my wing mirror is skimming the top of the wall as I go round the corner! I don't think i'm gonna get that lucky there again!

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feuerdog

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2010, 09:28:01 AM »
Heh,...I have a replay of me driving my SCCA spec Miata through a wall,....the mirror and entire side of the car clip through it, but no damage, no collision, no de-cert. And yet there are other parts of the track that will de-cert you for clipping an inch of white stripe.  :/

As for cockpit view,....I noticed by accident that i was giving too much space to the sides of my car while doing that little tiny circle test track. I have have my PoV widened via the multiscreen setup settings, and i'm on a 32" 16:9 screen. It's not distorted, but it can be misleading how much room I have to the sides of the car in hood cam view(where I play from).
In cockpit view the side view of the guardrails is far better.
I did a collision/contact test to see how close I could get to walls and stuff, and then marked my monitor frame in a way that I could know how close I was to a wall without actually seeing it.
It turns out I was wasting several feet of track width on some corners, especially where the rail comes up to the edge of the track. This knowledge/tactic dropped some of my lap times by entire seconds.

My lap times rarely get redone to reduce time. I only reset to eliminate gross mistakes and de-certs.
I'd guess about 90% of my times could easily be improved by as much as a tenth or more if I just spent two or three more runs on the track.
But alas, there are other tracks to still run, other cars to still tune, other games to still play, and other distra.....SQUIRREL!

feuerdog

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2010, 09:39:06 AM »
Hey Pete, I screwed up......the AWD modifier of my calc was incomplete when I tuned your car.

I tuned up a new VW mk6 GTI-R last night, and while it handled well I was frustrated by understeer. The only reason it really stood out was the fact that my "sport" brakes had  the default 50/50 bias, and if they locked up I couldn't even induce the slightest amount of braking oversteer.
About 15 minutes of calc revision revealed an incomplete calc that I had forgotten to log the status of.

I have completed that calc edit now and it should make a bit of a difference in the tune I sent you.

The AWD spring bias, which other factors are based off of, was too weak. It was still set to the FWD level. The difference is a minor bias of spring, caster, and damping values, several of which might not change at all. However, the springs might end up being about 10~15lbs weaker up front and stronger out back.
The end result is a bit more of an "on edge" balance, and more of the "aggressive exit" feel that we both know the car loves. Just another way to emulate the toe alignments you have, while minimizing front tire heating.

The calc is still being refined, but these test tunes help me find these little issues on my own without subjecting the community to crappy calcs.

FWIW: Everyone is welcome to submit cars for V7 test tuning results. As usual I don't promise perfection, just the best calculations I have come up with thus far.

BarbecuePete

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2010, 05:40:21 PM »
Hey Pete, I screwed up......the AWD modifier of my calc was incomplete when I tuned your car.

I tuned up a new VW mk6 GTI-R last night, and while it handled well I was frustrated by understeer. The only reason it really stood out was the fact that my "sport" brakes had  the default 50/50 bias, and if they locked up I couldn't even induce the slightest amount of braking oversteer.
About 15 minutes of calc revision revealed an incomplete calc that I had forgotten to log the status of.

I have completed that calc edit now and it should make a bit of a difference in the tune I sent you.


That's just the issue I was having with the Delta, i've sent it back over so you can put the update on and i'll give it another run...

I've also started running a little project car through the targa, I'm still working on the tune so was suprised at how well it went at Kaido putting up times just outside the top 100. Its a bit of a beast and needs careful throttle control to keep it pointed the right way, I'll have to post up the details though as its a DLC car and I can't gift it but I think it's just the thing to push the limits of your calcs...  how does a car with over 530hp that weighs just about 1600lbs sound?

Driving it is kinda like this...  :o :o :o ;D

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chuckrateez

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2010, 07:02:49 AM »

FWIW: Everyone is welcome to submit cars for V7 test tuning results. As usual I don't promise perfection, just the best calculations I have come up with thus far.

   OK, I'm about to show my ignorance here.  I'd love to have you put a V7 tune on one of my cars, but I don't even know how to gift a car.   ???  (I've only been online off-and-on for a couple of months, and mostly just hotlapping.)


      Chuck

BarbecuePete

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2010, 07:46:57 AM »
To gift a car Chuck, First you need to have the person on your friends list.
Then just go into your garage and and select the car you want to gift, when the menu pops up there is an option for 'gift car', select that option, scroll down the list of names and select the person you want to gift the car too...



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feuerdog

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Re: BBQ Lancia in B minor
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2010, 08:01:32 AM »
I have all the DLC cars,..so gifting might still work Pete. 500+hp in B-class sounds pretty scary to me,.....i'll bet the older Nissan Z could be built pretty close to those specs.

Chuck, i'll need your gamertag, and you'll have to give me a bit of time to clear out my friends list becuase at this time it's full.
If that is too much to deal with then all I really need from you is a few car stats:

weight
weight distribution
drivetype(awd,rwd,fwd)
front and rear tire widths(if they are different)
aero downforces(if used)