69 Charger C425 Build

[chargercrazy]

First, let me introduce myself.  I'm chargercrazy (you'll find out why in a bit) and I'm new to these boards but I've been following Fit's tuning for balance thread over on the official Forza boards.  I'm pretty new to tuning and am still trying to figure out what works and what doesn't.

I want to build this car because I own one -- well, that's not entirely true -- I own a 70 Charger that I am in the process of restoring.  It has been and continues to be a long process.  I'm a muscle car guy with a slant towards the Mopars, but I drive mostly American cars in the game unless forced to drive something different in career mode.  I haven't done any online playing because I haven't tuned any cars worth taking online.  I'd love to get involved with some online racing when I get decent at tuning.  I'm interested in taking on some tuning challenges also.

I know from some surfing around these boards that folks around here seem to like "grip" builds, but I have no idea what quantifies a "grip" build.  As an exercise for me, lets build this Charger as a "grip" build.

I drive with all assists off, manual with clutch, with a controller, so keep that in mind.  I might break down and buy a wheel if this tuning goes well.  I'll say I'm not the most consistent driver, but I'm getting better.

I like to purchase the tunable parts as upgrades, but since this is your show I'm open to anything.  In the past I've built more to the best power to weight ratio I can get under the PI cap.  Now I'll turn it over to you guys.  Let's start the build.

[Blooze]

One of the first things I like to do is drive the things as bone stock before taking off on a project such as this.  So, driving it as a E Class heavy...

• Set a personal best on the 1 mile Drag.  Will probably build it as an E Car since...
• I was able to get the Tunable Seven and still stay under the E limit.
• Could set a personal best on Sunset Oval with a bit of tranny work.
• It was drivable as is on MVS.

But along with that, these are some things that I know from having built others of these.  When all is said and done, she won't have no grip, period.  There's only a spoiler for aero parts, and 255 is the widest rear tire available.  Looking into engine swaps for the new Charger engine or the Hemi is of no value other than asthetics ("I got me a Hemi!")

Note: No consideration at all was given to making this an AWD swap - one of those would only show up at a Monster Truck ralley, anyways.

Another thing to note...the car's Hp and Tq are the tops on my list of C class cars.  So more power is not needed so much as being able to take advantage of the power that is already there.

After whittlin' all down I can only come up with one idea, or vision, for how this project will take shape.  I'll make a Resto-Rod out of it.  Something I could go get groceries with and not be in danger of getting embarassed at the stop light.  A car that is fun to take to local track days, or maybe play around with autocross, and for sure hit the local strip.

How far will I take the charade?  Hell, I don't know - depends how the Pi holds out, I guess.

I went with the Sport Tires and the Sport WR, more or less in keeping with my Resto-Rod fantasy.

One issue with the car that it is a torquey mutha, and prone to knocking the rear wheels loose on a whim.  I added the Sport Cam to move the torque curve more toward the top of the power band, and to get the additional RPM.  A Sport Flywheel was added to help with the wrap up speed - the Oil Cooler 'cause I could without hitting the Pi.

A set of 17" Gram Lights was added for esthetics as well as the weight savings -the Race Drive line was used to finish off the Pi.

I think that is everything.  Now - got to throw a tentative tune to 'er and see how she works...

$

[Fit4aking]

Welcome ChargerCrazy, glad you stopped by.  I commend your introductory approach, far too often we see "I need a car YESTERDAY!!! Please help." threads pop up when new people join. 

The Charger project sounds like a good one, I'll need a speed build on something in C-class and it would be able to compare with the cars I'm running against Pete in the RWD Runoff at the moment.  Perhaps I'll add this to my list of C-class purchases and have a shot at it.

Being a Muscle car guy is a good thing and everyone around here has had plenty of time piloting them around various tracks.   Heck we even had a Muscle Mongoos initiative a while back to make the old iron tame the Snake tracks of Forza two, now the Proving Ground.  While the Charger has always had a 'stigma' about it from the last version of the game it has yet to be labelled as a glitch car right out of the box like it had been, at least the Mopar fans will be happy about that, and it opens up those cars as viable options not pure missles.

You asked what quantifies as a grip build in your post and it's a bit easier than it would seen.  I have three types of builds, grip, overall, and speed. 
-Grip is when I know I want the car to handle as good as virtually possible with little regard to top speed.  The canyon carver that would be hard pressed to make it around the longer tracks without getting passed on the long stretches no matter how far ahead I was in the curves.  Since there are a plethora of short, mini, and inherently tiny tracks these populate every class because you need them to do well in those instances.
-Overall builds are a combination of speed and grip and comprise most of my garage.  With an emphasis more on "enough" grip and "a bit" of power to handle most tracks these are the Series racers.  The one size has to fit all car that will be at home on Tsukuba, Laguna, and Road America with minimal trade offs.  I personally like these the best because they embody balance and I love the challenge of trying to win with these builds against the specialists.
-Speed, self explanatory.  Build for acceleration and top end for the likes of the Ring, Ovals, Road America, anywhere that top end will get you out ahead and handling can't catch back up.  I only tend to have one or two of these per class. 

I hope you find some good hints here, I know I have, and feel free to take part in any of the Challenges.  Its really not about who wins or tops the board as much as it is about trying new things in an attempt to improve yourself.

-Fit.

[feuerdog]

Many of us around here actually tune and build to our own fairly unique standards, but we tend to agree on tuning principles and ideas in general. In this way we improve each other by comparing notes, techniques, and by just having fun with our cars.
You've come to the right place.

I'll take a different approach to this car. I'll build one for myself, throw a tune at it, and then share the results here.  

[Blooze]

Ah good!  I haven't built many of these this time around and I would appreciate something to compare to...

$

[TheJohnNewton]

Well if I get time I'll try to join the party and build one of these up as well.  For me a grip build would start with all the Forza aero parts available, all the adjustable suspension parts, the best tire compound that will fit in the given class and then the widest that fit in the class.  If after that I can shed some weight that would be next.  

[feuerdog]

Interesting....

Based more on my own build style than a specific "grip" build, the car has plenty of grip for a typical muscle car.
That said it has plenty of room for more power options so I gave a few.
I wouldn't call it a purposed "missile" build, but it's no gripper.

I went with a moderately balanced build, full weight reduction, sport trans, 225/45/17 stock tires, mostly race handling, and a bump in power for the stock block and stock cams.

423hp
541tq
2913lbs @53% front
top speed on mulsanne is 155mph
lateral G is .85 @60

Tuning is a rough draft of a V6 calc variant.
It handles quite well, a bit on the "balanced/loose" side of stable, but firm and controlled.
This is a throttle controlled car like most muscle cars are.

Rough times are thus so far:
Amalfi Coast 1:06
Nurburgring GP 2:17

I won't share any settings yet, cause I want to rebuild a little more grip into her, but so far shes pretty fun.

[chargercrazy]

I'm still working on mine.  Hopefully I'll have the final build listed in here tomorrow. 

I need to figure out how to use Blooze's tooning sheet.

[Blooze]

Ah, Procrastination, the bain of my existance...  and trying to get that Tooning sheet documented is a real close second.

Here's what I got at the moment.  The Pi is 424 from me trying to fit the American Torque Thrust rims rather than the Gram Lights which would fill it out.

1969 Dodge Charger R/T

• Hp: 414
• Tq: 491
• Wt: 3305

0 to 60:	4.492
0 to 100:	12.436
TS:	158.7
60 to 0 :	127.4
100 to 0:	336.1
g's @ 60:	1.01
g's @ 120:	0.94

Gears

• FD = 3.58
• 1-6= 2.68   1.99   1.51   1.20   1.07   0.88

Setup

Wt Bias - SWR	50.00%	43.00%
Parameter	Front	Rear
Tires	28.5	28.0
Camber	-1.0	-0.8
Toe	0.1	0.0
Caster	5.0
ARB +40%	12.00	12.00
Springs +0%	708.5	708.5
Height	7.7	6.8
Rebound	7.9	7.5
Bump	4.0	4.0
Aero -0%	na	na
Brakes	48	100
Front Diff	na	na
Rear Diff	32	22
Torque	na

RA Short	65.474
Seb Short	84.592
Tsukuba	63.713
QR	213.779

My current "best" C car has a QR of 205.821 so you can see how the Charger is faring.  I managed a 44.083 on MVS and had no trouble with the car - no trouble anywhere really.  It's just not very fast - it feels slow even.

I will probably spend some time with it today - I need some seat time in it due to my spending the last month or so in the R classes, and besides that, it owes the Daytona Coupe fund about a hunert grand...

$

PS:  I attached the Build Sheet for the Charger for those of you trying to figger the thing out...

[Blooze]

I went and drove the thing around a little bit more and managed to improve the QR quite a bit, by almost 4 seconds in fact. 

I gave Amalfi a try and managed a 65.960 on that track.  My time on Nurburgring GP is 139.038, not so puffy, but a lot of that is me rather than the car.  I haven't really spent that much time on that track.

1969 Charger R/T

RA Short	63.896
Seb Short	82.840
Tsukuba	63.182
QR	209.918

I really like the car, it is fun to drive and sounds nice.  I could imagine the old Italian women in Positano complaining to each other, "There goes the crazy old Amercan and his noisy green car... mutter, mutter, mutter."

I think before it is all said and done I will have most or all of the Muscle cars segregated in C, B, and A and set up where I can compare their times within the group. 

$

[ORG63]

I put one of these to the test but went for lighter weight and more grip. Left the motor stock, looked good for the lighter weight. Used the stock 4 speed trans just to see how it would work out.  I Looked over the setup Blooze posted and used some of his settings
375hp / 480tq / 2,938 lbs
Bench Marks
         4.371
       12.221
T.S.   145.1
Brake 116.8
         308.8
G'S     1.10
          1.04

Race tires 245/255- 14"
F.D and Trans default
Tire PSI 28/28.5  Front could be lowered to 27.5 as they go over 32 after a couple laps
camber -1.0 / -0.8 (Blooze)
toe  +0.1 / 0.0
caster  5.0
A.R.B 12/12   (blooze)
Springs 697.6 / 678.4  Default setting
R.H. 7.7 / 6.8 ?? (Blooze)
Shocks 7.8/7.5  (Blooze)
          4.0/4.0
Aero  rear wing 137 Default setting
Brakes  48/102
Diff  30/15

Tsukuba 64.009
Sebring  84.579
R.A.S.    63.934

   Q.R.  212.512  

I drive using the auto trans only so using manual trans would be faster.

It is a fun car to race.  This build might be to slow for the longer tracks with it's top speed that low.

I worked on this car for about 4hours, different builds and tunes all I it did was get faster on Sebring and slower on Tsukuba and R.A.S.  It's a kind of have or have not car.  Grip, light weight or higher H.P. more weight less grip or Race trans less grip less power etc.


        
 

[Blooze]

I worked on this car for about 4hours, different builds and tunes all I it did was get faster on Sebring and slower on Tsukuba and R.A.S.  It's a kind of have or have not car.  Grip, light weight or higher H.P. more weight less grip or Race trans less grip less power etc.

That right there is the driving force behind my Mantra...

"Build the Car you Like, then find out where it runs best."

Other than that you will wind up with about 5 or 6 variations on the same car and class and need a notebook to remind which Toon to which Track.  IMO, it is easier to go with, "This is my grip car, and this is my Speed car."

Oh, that squirrelly business with the Road Height belongs to the car - I just knocked a point off both ends... 

I am wondering, what does having the springs and ARB on different Bias  (what is the plural for Bias?  Biases, or Biasii?) do for you?  Or more better, what problem caused you to do that?

$

[Fit4aking]

Blooze you'd go nuts looking at my most recent setups.  My spring/sway bias's rarely match up with one another.  Once I get everything baselined I have no problem knocking small adjustments off of the sway bars even if it takes them out of a certain bias relationship.  However my spring biases are always spot on a calculated value. 

The one thing that causes me to adjust this way is over and understeer balance mid corner.  I'll tweak dampers for turn in and corner exit and sways for mid corner but I don't put too much effort into maintaining a bias balance between springs and sways if I find a set up that works.  Generally though I'm only off of my original bias rate by 0.10 to 0.30 front to rear, no large value changes.

[TheJohnNewton]

I built an all out grip version since you stated this should be a grip build.  Probably not the way I would go with this car though as it doesn't play to its strengths.  I was able to match Blooze's time on Tsukuba and RA but was about a half second slower on Sebring.  I could almost match my ghosts in corners but didn't have the sped down the straights.  I did max tire compound and width, rear aero, and sport weight reduction.  Engine is stock.  Car is very easy to drive but not overly fast.

0-60            4.508
0-100         13.444
top speed    149.4

60-0            117.7
100-0          309.5

60 mph         1.14
120 mph        1.07

[chargercrazy]

My build looks like this.

Race Exhaust
Race Camshaft
Race Brakes
Race Springs & Dampers
Race Front and Rear ARBs
Full Roll Cage
Street Weight Reduction
Race Transmission
Race Driveline
Race Differential
Street Tire Compound
215/50R17 Holeshot Holestars on all 4 corners
Race Rear Wing

These are my times with all the updates and no tuning at all:

Atlanta Short       65.364
Tsukuba Full         64.141
Sebring Short       83.891

Curb Weight is 3609 lbs and 461 Horsepower.  I think the Torque is 505 if I remember correctly.

Now if I can figure out how to tune this thing I think I can shave down those times.