Author Topic: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design  (Read 1049 times)

Yomillio

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Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« on: January 06, 2010, 04:39:50 PM »
Hey guys,

I'm new to this community, but not Forza.  I was looking around on FM.net and somehow ended up here, I can't remember how.  Anyways, I need a little help in regards to tuning.  I dabbled a little in tuning in Forza 2, putting out 1 car and never another as I was never able to make a car I was completely happy with.  Now, I stepped up to Forza 3 and I'm trying all over again.

This whole time, though, I seem to be missing something - I can't tell if it's my driving, my tuning, or what.  I had the same issue in F2, but I want to try and find out what might be up now.  My issue is that I can't seem to produce anything that is leaderboard worthy.  I tune, test and drive all my cars personally, so I can't narrow down whether I'm making lousy tunes, am just a crappy driver, or what.  Latest case in point:  I've been working on an A600 Volvo C30.  Today I got it pretty comfortable to drive (for me anyways), and took it out on Silverstone International.  I made a solid pass (in my eyes), putting up something like a 1:57:xxx with no penalties, etc.  However, I go to look and see how I stack up on the leaderboards out of curiosity, and I notice that my hot lap is ranked something like 53,000 with the number 1 A600 car being all of 10 whopping seconds faster than my pass.

When I peek around FM.net, I constantly notice tuners who tout that their cars made it to like, #7 on this track, #30 on this track, etc.  What am I missing?  I surely have to be missing something somewhere, when my driving and tuning put me so far off what these people can do.

Anyways, do you guys have any tips?  I put up the tune in my storefront (GT: Yomillio) if anyone wants to check it out and tell me whats up with it - I put it up for 1,000 CR (trying to discourage unsuspecting people from grabbing a lousy tune - also, I have a basic matching paintjob if anyones interested ;)).

Also, I poked around here and found the one guide to weight, power, grip, etc. for tuning but I seem to not be able to find all the calculators you all make reference to - can anyone help me out?

Thanks for any help in advance, and thanks for putting up with a new guy :)

EDIT: Oh, and be warned - the parts for this tune are EXPENSIVE.  Drivetrain + Engine Swap to make this little D Class hatch worthy(ish) of A Class :)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 04:52:14 PM by Yomillio »

Blooze

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2010, 05:27:06 PM »
Well lemme see, where to start...

One of the first things to get ahold of is you are probably not one of those #7 guys.  Damn few of us are.  It sure as hell isn't me.  But what we can help you with is the be the best you.  One of the main tools we have for this are our tuning challenges.  There is one going on right now.  Build a car to the spec and run the track.  Discuss problems, etc. and so on.  Everybody here is glad to help.

Now, when it comes to tuning, how much do you know about it in real life?  You know, like from a mechanical engineering aspect, or from having built hotrods, or from some sort of physics or engineering education... stuff like that.  If you haven't ever been to any of those places, then it is pretty hard for you to expect yourself to suceed at something you know nothing about.  Some attention will have to be given to this aspect of the game if you want to get anywhere with the tuning.

The Calculators:  Feuerdog has one.  He can help you with how to get a copy of it.  There is a thread on this board about that as a matter of fact...

http://forza-tuning.net/index.php/topic,1299.msg21941.html#msg21941

There's and extended discussion on the characteristics of the game and suspension tuning in my thread - weight bias tuning.  Also, there are some spread sheets that can help you but you got to be pretty well versed in Excel 2003 or later or they won't be much help to you.

I have a C30 Volvo and will be glad to take a look at your tune and give you my thoughts on how you are doing, only we can't get 'er done the way you suggest.  If I buy your tune it will come locked and I won't be able to see what you've got.

I've sent you a friend request (my GT is Blooze46).  Accept the request and gift me the tune - then I can see what you have done.

So, it's started.  It's not as hard as it seems.  Remember, it's a game - this is supposed to be fun!

;D $
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Yomillio

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2010, 05:45:37 PM »
I'll gift it over in just a minute, when I'm done writing this up.

And I saw the FF Hatch B-Class challenge, I'll probably go for it :).

I like to think that I have a pretty firm grasp on tuning.  Most of my education is from about 7 years of racing sim games (Started with Gran Turismo 2) and following cars my whole life.  I can explain the ins and outs of most every aspect of tuning, the only thing I'm really still working on is getting a good idea of alignment options.  Although, I'm getting a decent idea of that too - I understand them, its just putting this knowledge into action.

I'll hit up Feuerdog for the calculators.  I have decent experience with Excel 2003 so thats not a problem.

I don't expect to be a leaderboard racer, and have always had great fun with Forza.  This little nugget I explained above is just something that has left me scratching my head over the past years.  Could never understand how my times could be so off from the top, when I thought I was laying down some decent times.

Anyways, thanks for all your help, I appreciate it.  I'll gift you over that tune pronto :)

Blooze

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2010, 05:52:37 PM »
Okay.

So, tell me what you think of the tune.  Is it doing what you want - does it push or is it loose?  Are the gears how you want them?  ...that sort of stuff.

:) $
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Yomillio

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2010, 06:00:05 PM »
Okay.

So, tell me what you think of the tune.  Is it doing what you want - does it push or is it loose?  Are the gears how you want them?  ...that sort of stuff.

:) $

Thats the thing - its all pretty comfortable for me.  The gearing is good, though I could probably shorten it up a touch in 5th/6th.  It pushes a bit until I get a little weight transfer going with some braking - but overall I like it.  I have been working on dialing in a bit more oversteer though.  Anyways, I just printed out the requirements of the Kaido competition so I'm off to play now - I'll send over that tune right now and see what you think of it... I definitly need a second opinion on what I could be missing or doing better.

Thanks again mate :)

Blooze

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2010, 08:08:55 AM »
Let's see... where to begin

I took it sight unseen to MVS, one of my QR tracks and gave it a run (with TCS off).  My first impression of the car is that there was something really wrong with 1st gear, and then next, that the car has no grip.  And after a bit, that the holes between the lower gears are too big - I was continually overrevving the engine and breaking the rear end loose when down shifting.  I also tried a number of laps on Tsukuba, with the same problems.  

When looking it over I was surprized to see that it had no Slicks, but then I saw that it carried the major engine upgrade at 226 Pi points and understood why.  I noted also that the new engine didn't have the stroker condition that was one of the alluring factors to the car for me in the first place.  Anyhow, the g@120 number is 1.05 - the lowest in my 14 car A garage is 1.11, so I could see then how I thought it had no grip.  I took it back to Tsukuba and drove it like a stock RWD (The Torque is set at 93%) and had a little better luck, ending with a 57.805.

Here are some of the other things I noticed.
  • The ARB are nearly double in strength of even the strongest R1 car.  Also they are biased at 45%, indicating that the car itself is front biased, which it is - but only by 53%.
  • The springs have a stength half way between an Enzo and an R1 car (SWR = 53.82%).  They are biased at 48% - this is something you usually only see on a mid engined car like the Audi R8.
  • Same story with the Dampers - a 47% bias and the Bump at 68% of the Rebound.
  • The brakes are biased forwards - that really was raising hell with my ABS.
  • I thought all of the Diff values were quite high.  Especially the Torque Split.  At 93%, you essentially have an RWD car.
  • Gearing - First gear has an overall ratio of 15.47, stock is 9.46.  This is quite high in my books.   I suppose it is to eliminate the bog at launch, but all I got out of it was spin.  Also, it eliminates the gear from use once you get the thing rolling.  The drop from second (2.42) to first (4.47) is so steep that if you down shift at any but the slowest speeds you lock the rear wheels, and if damage is on, you break your engine.  The step between 2 and 3 is relative large also and the same problem exists there.
  • The top speed is 183 but it takes a lap and a half on the big ring to get there.  Top speed on the Mile drag is 168 mph.  This is your real working top end.

Overall, I thought the car pushed badly - I had to feather it constantly around the big sweeper on MVS, and when I got to the corner, step on the brakes and down shift to get it to not run straight off the track.  Yet when on Tsukuba, the rear end kept breaking loose on exit and I had to baby sit that on every turn.

I see very few stock values so that means you are the author of most of settings, meaning you had some sort of idea of accomplishing something when you set the values.

My opinion is that almost everything is too much, and that the car is biased all wrong.  But like I said, that is my opinion.

What part of it do you want to discuss first?

:) $
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 09:38:39 AM by Blooze »
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Blooze

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2010, 11:15:04 AM »
I'm sort of Anal about my Tuning Files and stuff and I spent a good part of the morning getting my Volvo straighteded out after having loaded your first file.  So, why don't you tell me what is different about this one.  I can pretty well tell what is going to work and what isn't.

I have the Volvo built out to the BTCC spec that is required by that challenge, if you are interested in that let me know.  Also, you could see an example of the tuning antithesis of the list above.  It might give you some ideas.

:) $
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Yomillio

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2010, 12:12:46 PM »
At least this confirms that I really was missing something :).

The new one I sent over to you was one I revised this morning - before I read either of your posts.  Softened the springs and dampening a bit, anyways.  It won't be different enough to make any significant change.

First off, I'd love to see your tune and check it out.  That'll help give me an idea of what a car should be.

Okay, so here we go:
 - I set up the gearing strictly from a acceleration perspective, as I use Auto (hate to admit it, but I do).  Also, I never got a feel for how a transmission should be properly set up. 
 - I know it really needs slicks.  I will probably do another build using the stock engine to get the little bit of extra P.I. to do that, I just need the funds first.  Also, what is the 'stroker condition' that you mentioned?
 - What would a normal bias for a car like this be for both springs, dampening and ARB's?  I never thought to lighten the ARB's, I always just assumed you'd want them as strong as possible without loosing significant grip to the inside tires.  Also, what kind of strengths do you want to run on a car like this for dampening and springs?
- I simply put the bias forward on the brakes to even out what I was experiencing with brake over/understeer.  I guess I didn't consider braking ability.
- The torque split was like that as I wanted the extra throttle oversteer, with the little bit of added launch ability having some power to the fronts.
- I run TCS (hate to admit this, also) so I never noticed the wheelspin much.  All I noticed was beating Corvettes off the line  :-\
- I considered the pushing this morning - hence, softened suspension with the second tune I sent.  But it still should be off from what it should be.
- About the top speed thing:  Should I just set my last gear to two lower?
- I used my diff settings as a scapegoat to try and fix my chassis issues.  Hence, astronomical values.

All in all, I'm sure it is biased poorly - I never knew what proper biasing should be, I've always just tuned from feel, making tiny adjustments at a time as I noticed something going wrong.  Ultimately, I know how to fix problems with a car for my style of driving using little tweaks, but do not know how to set one up for maximum performance.

Send me over that tune when you get a chance - I need to start figuring out what a proper tune is.

Thanks again for all your help!

Fit4aking

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2010, 12:33:49 PM »
Yomillo, welcome to the site and I'm pleased to see intellegent conversation regarding tuning (tooning) a car instead of the pleading that normally pops in.  I will continue to read this and perhaps build out the car in the future.  Consider it added to my round tuit list.

I just wanted to voice my opinion on one thing that I've read so far and it isn't tuning related.  You said you hate to admit that you use TCS.  Don't!  The assists are there to aid the driving learning curve just as we are here to help aid the tuning learning curve.  Sometime one has a lot to do with the other.  You didn't notice the condition of the car due to the assist and if you tune for TCS that is perfectly fine.  The other side of the coin is to tune so the car doesn't need TCS.  There is no wrong way and I doubt anyone here will give you any crap about how you enjoy the game.  Can't wait to see your improvement with the car.

Do you have any lap times to quantify the improvement???
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Yomillio

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2010, 12:51:35 PM »
No lap times for the improvement yet.  I've just gotten around to messing with Blooze's BTCC tune, made an initial 294.7xx pass with it down Kaido (nothing too special, but no wall hits) - and man, was it smooth.  I'm not used to cars this soft, but it seems that I should be :).

And I'll start working without TCS, it is apparent that it disguises some of the issues I'm having.  I'd like to stop using it anyways  :-\

I'll get back around to the orignal A600 Volvo in a bit, but I do think that I'm gonna tune a SEAT SC for some passes on Kaido now.  I'll post up improvements when I get to it.

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2010, 02:03:42 PM »
A600 Volvo C30 - I'll build one up out of curiosity and post my thoughts here.

One things you'll notice Yom, is that even though we all love to tune and compare notes, we also generally have our own ways of tuning and building cars.

Tuning(and building) cars is really about learning the fundamentals of component function and then applying that knowledge to the responses you are looking for.
There is no one perfect way of tuning or driving,...but we each have our own "sweet spot" of perfection when it comes to what works for us.
All you need to do is learn where your own sweet spot is.

FWIW, I drive 99% auto trans too, but only rarely need TCS for anything but R-classes. 

Spiny Anteater

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2010, 02:05:17 PM »
First of all, I'd like to reiterate what others have said about not being ashamed of using assists. There's plenty here use one assist or another, only some are fully assist free. While you can be faster with the assists off, if you're not enjoying yourself with them off what's the point? Also, notice that what works for one driver doesn't always work for another. For example, when I ran Blooze's Brera I had to make some minor adjustments as it felt (just a little) understeery to me, yet it was perfect for Blooze's driving style.

Secondly, although I haven't seen your tune, here's a few pointers:

1) Try to feel what the car is doing. It sounds like you've been trying to mask the understeer by putting the centre torque almost right to the back. (Generally tunes on here seem to be between 50-80% split depending on the driver.) But you need to work out what your car is doing, and where in a corner it is. Does it understeer on corner entry, on corner exit or under steady state cornering? Same for oversteer.

2) Once you've got that worked out, you can begin tuning. Take things easy at first. Tune springs and ARBs to get your steady state cornering right. Try tuning the damping for the transitions into and out of the corner. Adjusting brake bias can affect your corner entry as can the decel setting. Your accel setting and throttle control will have more of an effect on corner exit.

That's just the basics, but you can go a long way just with that. Try reading the "Damping" thread in the drivers' lounge for a more in depth discussion on dampers and ARBs (Feuerdog is a very good teacher 8))
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Blooze

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2010, 02:31:57 PM »
I'm glad Fit brought it up, and I want to reiterate, there is never any need to appologize or feel embarassed by which ever assists you do or do not use.  I too use TCS on any RWD that has any sort of power at all.  The only reason I brought it up is because in that state, TCS off, the thing wouldn't move at all.  Knowing that it was intended for an Automatic would have been useful as well, but it is of no consequence.  To finish with this thought, what Assists you use are your business and your business alone as far as this room is concerned.

Now for the questions as best I can...

A "Stroker" in my world is any engine whose Bore is smaller than the length of the crank shaft stroke.  Almost always a result of this configuration is an engine whose Torque value is higher than its Hp value.  That is the case of the Volvo's stock engine.  This means that the car can pull harder in lower RPM conditions, and it cuts down on some of the shifting that has to go on.

Have you read any of that Weight Bias thread posted in my garage.  That would help with some of what is to follow...

Imagine if you will, or if you have the where-with-all to do it, that you are holding a relatively heavy 2' long piece of steel horizontally straight out in front of you at arms length.  To keep the steel perfectly horizontal, what would you think would be a primary consideration for how you are holding it?  That you be holding it in the middle, with equal length pieces extending from both sides of your fist.  If a foot and a half of it is sticking out of the heel of your hand you are going to have to exert a good deal of twisting force to keep the steel horizontal.  If your are asked to twist your wrist so the ends of the steel move up and down, then this job will be much easier if the steel is balance, both ends extending the same distance.

And the same is with a car.  The primary issue with getting a car to turn is getting it to rotate around itself.  All sorts of things get in the way of preventing it from rotating, or making it difficult.  One of these is the distance the center of mass is from either end of the car.  So the answer to your question of which sort of bias is best for a car like this is, 50%.

Now, if you have followed my little crusade to convince the world that the spring bias is the actual bias of the car, not the Weight Bias published in the stats, then you can understand the settings you see on the cars that I tune.  What's more, you will understand that a value called the SWR (by me, I don't know what Turn 10 calls it, but they sure as hell use it) is used to govern how weight is distributed on the car and the actual values of the spring rates and everything else suspension oriented.  So anyway, you would need to get going with a spreadsheet of some sort to make use of the numbers we've come up with.  I may try to build another simplified Tonka Tuner one of these days...

As far as the bias on rebound to bump, the Race cars and all cars in last seasons game were all initiated with a Bump value that was exactly half of the rebound value.  These new extreme values for the suspensions of stock cars is a ruse to make them "drift" easier for the uninitiated, I think.

I usually work out the top speed by setting the FD of the car until I can almost red line the thing in 6th gear running on the Nissan Oval.   Then I set 1st gear to launch reasonably well.  Then I use my gear spreader to move the gears to a proper distance from each other.  There is a gear spreader in my Spreadsheet Archive.

On the differentials, low settings, or slow to lock, are generally easier to handle.  Having that inside wheel lock up to the same RPM as the outside one in the middle of a corner can be a tad unsettling...

By now you've had a chance to look over the BTCC Toon that I sent over.  Do you have any questions about it?

:) $
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 03:14:41 PM by Blooze »
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Yomillio

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2010, 06:19:50 PM »
First off, thanks for the replies everyone.  I appreciate it.  Now I'm driving around with TCS off... amazing how much that changes things.

Gotcha on all of it Blooze.  I think I'm gonna revamp the tune with the stock engine to be a B-Class car at some point... it'll work better for that I think, A is a little bit of a stretch for the humble D class chassis :).

But to make sure I get the weight concept theory - lets say I'm driving around an MR vehicle and my weight distribution is about 46% to the front.  Is it the front or rear that I want to stiffen up?

And to the BTCC tune - no questions just yet.  Made one pass down Kaido with it for a certified 294.xxx.  I bottomed it out a few times on the way down, but no problems came from that so it's all good.  And it opened my eyes to soft, balanced tuning - all my cars ever have always been much stiffer and usually rear biased just because I thought that was the way its supposed to be for some reason.  I'd personally stiffen your tune a tad, just because I like a bit more responsiveness, but it definitely showed me that soft is okay. lol.

Also, poked around FM.net a bit and found the tuning resources guide thread - wish I saw that before.  I'm looking around through all the guides and such, and also found feuer's calc.  Good stuff.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate it.

EDIT:  I checked out the dampening thread, but was a bit confused by all the back and forth discussion, so I'll just ask my question here (be it dampening related or not).  I'm driving around a B-Class M3 (FR car) for career mode, and used Feuer's calc to set up the suspension.  It works pretty well, my only complaint being that it has some light throttle oversteer - I can keep it in check by feathering, but can't make absolutely perfect corners all of the time.  What moves can I make to fix that up without completely ruining the balance of the car?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 07:59:08 PM by Yomillio »

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Re: Need an evaluation and some tips: A600 Volvo C30 R-Design
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2010, 08:22:26 PM »
I'm going to take a moment to talk about the top times phenomenon.  You should know that the top times are set almost exclusively in AWD cars by blindingly fast drivers on their absolute fastest laps.  In other words, they ake pretty mediocre measuring sticks.  I only have one car (an Audi) that even approaches that level of speed, and I like to think I'm at least a little ahead of the curve where speed is concerned.  If you want to create a good benchmark, test your car against other cars you've driven.  Blooze has some spreadsheets that will help you with that, or you can create your own.  Knowing what YOUR fastest car is will be much more helpful than knowing that it's not the fastest on the planet.
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