Blooze Tuning Sheet

[Blooze]

I think the other sheet is a tool that was put together by TJN.  I was looking for it t'other day so I could get it into the Archive.  If you can find where you found it, lemme know where it is.

The following is how to use the section of the Tuning Sheet between the two Purple "Lines", known as the Tonka Toy.

First, let me point out that that sheet, and the Tonka Toy, are tools that have evolved from tools that I developed for Sega GT 2000 and have moved across all three Forzas to what it is today.  There are things that may seem to be in a wierd place - just consider that it may be legacy - that is the excuse for a lot of things.

There are 4 pieces of data required to get the thing to calculate.  The Curb Weight of the car must be entered in cell Q4.  This is generally where I enter the weight after all of the parts have been added to the car and I know how much it is going to weigh for good.  Cell Q3 is where I enter the base weight of the car - what it weighs stock.  The base weight is copied to the final weight as a sort of auto-entry device so that a weight value is available to the Tonka Toy.  You can override that value when ever you know what it is going to be.  Whatever is entered here is copied to the Weight Cell inside the Tonka Toy, C7.  This cell should never be modified.  (I should make it readonly but the priviledges stuff in Excel confuses me).

The second value required is not required really, but is used if it is there so we'll discuss it just for giggles.  It is what I call the "Pupblished Weight Bias" - it is entered in the light orange cell K6.  It is set to a default of 50%, but for historic reasons I always put the Published Bias there when I am filling out the "Status" cells J3 - Q4.  Notice that whatever you enter here shows up in the Weight Bias cell in the Tonka Toy (C8)  This cell can be over written at any time.  Cell D8 is the original value for the Weight Bias, and was the original entry point for the Wb before I started using the input in K6.

The last two things to be entered are the front and rear spring values (cells C16 and C17).  Once they are entered you should see Tonka Toy fill itself out.  

Here is a rundown of what you are looking at...

The cells in Column C (for the most part) are for data entry (yellow background).  This is where the default values from the Forza Tuning screens are entered and preserved.  However there are a few exceptions.
Cell C6: This is a Boolean flag that determines how the ARB are to be treated. - 1 or True (the default) indicates that the ARB are to be Biased to the Inverse of the Wb.  This is the way it was in Forza II for all car types and for the most part, it still works best with Forza III cars.  Turning the flag off (set it to zero) indicates that the ARB bias should be calculated from the ARB values themselves if they are entered; or to the Wb of the car (Cell C8 if they are not.

Note: Let's use your BMW build as an example.  Get a clean sheet and enter the following...
Cell Q3 (Stock Weight) should contain the value 2762.  Notice that once this is entered, it shows up in cells Q4, and in the Tonka Toy at cells C7 and F7 as well.  Cell Q3 is a legacy value.  You will see as we go along...
Now enter the final weight after having installed your parts (2785).  This goes in cell Q4, and you will notice that the Tonka cells now contain 2785, and cell Q3 has been turned into historical data.
And now, enter the Published Wb into cell K6.  You will notice that this shows up in the Tonka cells C8, D8, F8 - C8 is used for calculations and can be overwritten, D8 is a legacy thing - F8 is the "Installed Value".  It is used to monitor future changes for things like getting club footed late at night and accidentally deleting something as you dose off...  We will work with the entire F column later.

Now you are ready to enter the spring values into cells C16 and C17, front and rear in that order.  Notice that the values for ARB and Dampers are filled in for you even though nothing has been entered for these parts.  In fact, you only need to enter these values if you are interested in them as a reference point.  They are not used in the calculations at all.

The Cells in Column B are modifiers of a sort, some of them are just references.  Cells in Column D are Primary Tonka Calculations;  The cells in Column E are the result of the Modifiers working on the Primary Values.  Column F is, as I said, installed values and a safety net.


Here is the break down of the cells in the ARB section.

• B11 - this is the cell that checks the Invert ARB flag and does the work if the flag is set, otherwise the actual ARB Bias (B13) is used.
• B12 -this the ARB modifier.  The values of the ARBs will increased by the percentage amount entered here.  In the Citroen example, the ARB are increased by 80%
• B13 -this is the Actual ARB Bias if the Initial ARB values are entered.  Otherwise it is zero.
• C11 -this contains the total ARB value.  (the sum of C12 + C13)
• D11 -this is the result of the Tonka ARB function.  The test on the spring cell is there to force the spring values to be entered, but other than that, the only other value required by this function is the SWR.  The output is a new Total ARB value.
• D12 -this cell uses the ARB Bias and new Total ARB to calculate the new Front ARB value.
• D13 -and whatever is left is the new Rear ARB value.
• E12 -is the result of applying the ARB modifier to the new Front ARB value.
• E13 -is the result of applying the ARB modifier to the new Rear ARB value.
• E11 -is the modified Total ARB value (B12 + B13)
• F11, F12, & F13 - the values of Cells E11, E12, and E13 are copied here.  If at anytime these pairs are not equal, the ones in the E Column will turn bright green, letting you know a value has changed.

I will continue this tomorrow - I have cramps in my wrists right now...  

$

[Hellisan]

I think the other sheet is a tool that was put together by TJN.  I was looking for it t'other day so I could get it into the Archive.  If you can find where you found it, lemme know where it is.

What I was speaking of was found here:

http://forza-tuning.net/index.php/topic,12.msg6061.html#msg6061

Thanks for taking the time, I *might* not have asked if I knew it was gonna be that much work for you but I'll be happy to understand this portion of the spreadsheet lol... I will now walk myself through what you've written.  I might even put some of your explanations into tagged popup notes within my tuning sheet.

[Hellisan]

Wow man... .I read through it, I feel I understand the Tonka portion now and I'm really, really digging this sheet at this point.  The beauty of it is how it keeps your "base" tune (the Tonka Tune) there at all times despite whatever tweaks you make with the adjustments.  This way you can go back whenever you want, less saving of tunes all the time.

Thanks again for taking the time. 

[Hellisan]

Just another quick shout to say thanks, I'm enjoying this thing more all the time.   My last post in this thread, maybe.... Please don't feel pressured to write an encyclopedia about question but.... In  J-R of rows 43-47 you have the section which you explained on the previous page and I did read that.  But you didn't specifically say what you would do to make adjustments there.  Here is my assumptions that i've used; let me know if I'm on the right track.


Front Grip on Exit - Haven't screwed with it at all.  I almost never have the problem of front grip at exit

Trans Oversteer - Based on the way the settings adjust I'm typing in a number from say 1-10 (could be higher) if I want MORE trans. oversteer (correct?) Or I could type in a negative number if I wanted less?  But then I'd just probably add tras. understeer?  or how would you tackle that...

Trans Understeer - " " " MORE trans. understeer.

[Blooze]

Sorry to have been so slow about documenting this thing - all programmers face this problem daily,

"Should I get on with solving the problem, or a new problem, or working on a new idea altogether, OR, should I document what I have already done..."

Needless to say, undocumented code is the bain of the entire industry, and I am talking about from the most simple of web documents on the Net to the very machine code deep within the bowels of Microsoft and Intel and the like.   I spent about 15 years working as a programming consultant and I would honestly say that 95% of my time on any job was figuring out what had been done before I got to the job.  Once I knew that, the solution was usually simple.

At anyrate, I will add this little bit concerning the Tonka Toy section of the sheet.

The explanation of the Springs section of the tool and the Dampers section of the tool are almost identical to that of the ARB section.

Within the bounds of the Tool (rows 5 - 26) I never touch the values in columns D and E.  Values in column C are entered at the start of the build and are never modified again.  An exception is the values of the Wb (C8) and the SWR (C9).  The Pink of Grey cells in column B are used for tweaking.  The only one I have used really is the one for the ARB, perfering to modify the weight and dampers with the SWR and Wb.

So... on to the use of the Damper Agents...

A word that was left out of each of the titles due to space considerations was "Enhance", Enhance Transition Oversteer.  Although negative numbers would work, consider that you would also be reducing the damping abilities of the particular shocks for other situations. 

Generally the numbers that come from the Tonka Calculations are considered good to go.  The Damper agents are provided for "tweakage".   I would think a "tweak" that involves a number much bigger than 4 for the dampers to indicate a bigger problem elsewhere.  Twp (2) is the biggest number I have ever used. 

For instance, I built a #10 Mustang Racer the other day.  I gave it what I call and 50/48 build (50% Wb and 48% SWR).  This produced numbers for the dampers of 8.1 and 4.1, both front and rear.  The default state of the sheet has the Damping agents set to 0.

Note: consider the process of handling the 2^nd turn on MV Short, or any turn on Tsukuba when reading what follows

Note that the first agent contains the word "exit" - so the state of the car will have the weight of the car trying to move toward the rear outside of the car ( Southeast? ).  So, we need to combat this weight transfer to keep the car turning instead of pushing.  The Exit agent increases the front rebound.  Think of it driving the tire to the road as the weight transfer towards the rear tends to lift the front of the car.  The agent also contains in increment to the Rear Bump of the car.  This is designed to slow the transfer of weight towards the rear.

The Exit agent can affect how fast you can get back to the gas on the first (any) turn of Tsukuba.  Personally, I have gotten into the habit of setting the Exit Agent to 2 by default.  So with the Agents set to 2,0,0 I went and drove it on MV short.  The car being set to a 50% bias and being an RWD, I was surprised somewhat to find that it was pushing, both as I tried to accellerate around turn 1 and when I tried to get back out of turn 2 - I had to lift in both cases to allow the car to turn.

I like to think that the Oversteer Agent, along with helping keep the front tires in contact with the road, also helps increase the rotation of the car around its center of mass.  I set the Oversteer Agent to 2 and tried it again.  I found that I was better able to accerate in turn one, and pulling out of turn two didn't run me off into the grass when I got to that little bump.  But the car was having a hell of a time making the corner and I had to wait on it to get lined up before nailing the gas.

This is what I was talking about - I could have gone in and bumped the Oversteer Agent even more, maybe a 6 or an 8 - hell it might have fixed the problem, but the dampers would now be seriously removed from what is considered the optimum value for the given weight, and the precentage of Bump = half Rebound.

I ended up solving the problem by also changing the ARB bias to 49% and setting the front Toe to +.2 and the rear Toe to +.1.

Now the car can be driven thru the apex of any of those turns without having to lift, and, all of the settings for the entire suspension are very close to the original Tonka setting.

If more than the values I am talking about became required to solve the problem, I would have considered a 49% Bias instead of 50%.  However, if watching in the telemetry I saw both front and rear outside patch go red on entry to the 2^nd turn, I would have considered lowering the SWR to maybe 47, or 46.5.

I guess what I am saying here is that big tweakage indicates a need to investigate the foundation.

I hope all of this running on at the mouth helps you formulate an answer to your question.  Thanks for the interest in the sheet.  I am fairly proud of what it can do and like helping others catch on to its power.

$

 

[chikinz712]

Blooze,
I read through all this, and I have checked out your tuning sheet.  Frankly I like the way you go about setting your FD and gear ratios, as that technique is the only one I have seen that has a process.  My question though is about camber.  How do you go about setting camber, toe, and caster angle? 

Camber and toe, I have read how you watch tire temps for those, but caster angle?  That one really boggles my mind.  I know that its the vertical angle that the springs are at compared to the contact patch of the tire on the road, but how do I know where and how much to adjust it off of what comes stock?

All 3 of these values I need more clarification on the process for, not so much what they do.  I am not happy with just plugging numbers into the calc sheets I have found so far.  Brakes, suspension and all that I think I get, but these values are so subjective depending on what track you use.  Do you guys set the car once, or change it per track, or per type? (twisty, power, sweeping for example)

Thanks.

[Blooze]

Castor is a particularly tough one to get a holt of, that is for sure.  The first concept that is a tuffy is to get it into your mind the the wheel is being pulled by the suspension.  I have found the analogy of the Chopper motorcycle neck to be helpful in understanding the concept.  Also, the front wheels of a shopping cart can create some helpful images.

There are basically two lines created by a motorcycles front wheel suspension.  The first is the line created by the weight on front tire.  It is the center of the contact patch and 90* to the ground, if the ground is flat.  The other is the line created by the angle of the neck.  Extend that line all the way to the ground.  The distance between the two lines contact points is the amount of lead the suspension has.  On a chopper it is easy to see this.  The Angle of the neck to perpendicular is readily available.  The higher the angle, the longer the lead.  This makes the bike feel like it is running on rails at speed. 

Now, in your mind's eye, picture what happens to the wheel when you turn it.  It doesn't turn much, does it?  Have you ever seen somebody try to back one of those things into the curb?  They have to do a bunch of cutting and filling to get it in at the proper angle if there are other bikes near it, otherwise it will be parked rather shallow, (eats up a lot of curb and pisses people off).

Now the other thing to notice when turning a chopper.  When you turn it, see how the front wheel sort of lays over on its side?  This action increases the hell out of the negative camber.  It works the same way with a car, and we refer to it as dynamic Camber. 

So, increasing castor slows steering responce, increases dynamic camber, increases high speed stability.  Decreasing castor speeds up steering responce, decreases dynamic camber, and can get squirrelly at high speed, however, it does a hell of a lot better in tight turns.  Watch the chopper dude try to make a u-turn in his stretched out rig.  It will involve one or both feet on the ground, and mostly likely some cut and fill.

So, what do I do with the Castor?  According to Dan Greenawalt, the stock setup is supposed to grade out as a low A, 95% - so that none tuners can play the game.  I leave the Castor alone.

My two biggest issues with the suspension are to get it to turn in, and to get it to turn, or rotate, when the weight is static front to rear.  Also, I set all of my cars, no matter to drive type, to a 50/50 weight distribution, or damned close to it.  So all my cars get the same initial alignment. 

Camber: -1.0 / -0.8
Toe:       0.1 / 0.0
Castor     0.5

All tuning is a compromise of one sort or another...  what you fix in one place screws up another.  About all you can do is find the spot that screws things up the least.  Those settings are that spot for me.  One can get track specific if they care to.  I don't.

I hope this helps some...

$

[Drift2XL]

I have finally got the ability do the spredsheets. I like it so far.

But I'm getting a hard road because I use stock or sport gearing. I've been through the internets trying to find gear box ratios . I've been lucky so far. Thank you to Car and Driver and SVT enthusiasts. The Focus SVT,... wow. Dual shaft transmisson means two different final drive ratios. So I just fudged numbers based on final drive numbers. I think I should go back and fit sport gearbox and find out what the Forza FD ratio is and adjust from there.

I was wondering if there was a way to link the info from the tune sheet to the leaderboard sheet. I am a total n00b when it comes to spreadsheets. But then I make stuff for a living so I can't do everything. I need a stroke by stroke instruction because this is all new to me.

[Blooze]

Which fields are you wanting to link?

$

[Drift2XL]

Just the first page of the LB. The one with the basic info. weight, power, forza stats. So I don't have to mess up looking at the wrong sheet and filling in the wrong car.

I'm giving it a trial run. Setting the method for the new game. Just working on the minor amount of F classers I have.

[Blooze]

Okay, that confused me... 

Are you wanting the basic info on the Tuning Sheet (cells J4:R4) to show up on your Leaderboard Sheet?

$

[Drift2XL]

I thought you had a link between them for quicker usage. But if you didn't its not going to kill me to manually input them. I guess I can max one window and shorten the other sheet and just pop in between them. No probs.

[Blooze]

There's no issue with it, just wanted to know which way you wanted to go with the data.  These links are a one way type of deal.

So, if you want... say the weight, next to the Car Name on your leaderboard sheet here is what you do.  First make sure the two sheets you want to link are open, then...

• On the LB sheet, select the cell where you want the weight to be displayed and hit the equal ( = ) key.
• Now move to the Tuning Sheet, and the cell where the weight is entered.  (a live border should appear around the cell).
• Now, hit the enter key.  The focus should return to the LB Sheet and the weight should be in the cell where you started.

What will actually be in the cell is a formula that looks something like this...

='[G_S-USA.xls]ZR1'!$Q$4

Do this same thing for each cell you want to link.

Remember, it is One Way.  You can't enter the weight while in the LB Sheet.  It is read only.  If you want to change the weight, you must do so in the Tuning sheet.  The neat thing about this is that the weight is only entered once, and in one place.  It can be linked to 20 different places if you want, and when you change the weight in the tuning sheet, it is automatically updated in all of the other 20 places.  Back in the olden days we reffered to this a WORM data association... Write Once, Read Many.

I hope that helps.  If not, attach the spreadsheets in question with more explicit instructions.  I can be a bit dense at times...

$

[Drift2XL]

Thanks Blooze. I was just looking to connect the two. I just wanted the one way. I've never dealt with spreadsheets before. Glad you here to help me out.

[TheJohnNewton]

Blooze, 

I found my old simple tuning sheet.  Not sure if you were still looking for it but I've attached it.