Author Topic: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge  (Read 5986 times)

Blooze

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2010, 05:42:59 AM »
Well, I had had me a plan to help the process out, and it did, somewhat, but not as much as I had hoped.

The Plan?  I went and ran those tracks with a couple R2 cars - my Opel, GT-R, and Lexus to be specific.  Put down #41 on the Uphill and #44 on the Downhill.  It took more than a few runs to get valid times with those R2 cars 'cause, my goodness, they are quick.  My thought was that once I got used running those things around, the BTCC cars would seem a piece of cake.

And basically, that was the case.  Except there was one blaring fault to the plan.  The BTCC cars ain't quite the same car as the Outlaw DTM Opel.  I didn't have the brakes or the grip, so even though I could see it in time, I still couldn't do much about it.

But it did help a little.

:) $
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barumba

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2010, 06:49:48 AM »
I can't figure out how to see posted times for specific cars. That is, when I check the leader board, all I see is my best time in one car, not best time by a particular car. In other words, I can find my time in the SEAT, but not the Volvo, Clio, etc.
Any tips on finding all my times. I guess I'll have to jot them down in a logue for now.
Thanks, and Cheers!
If you’re gonna jump then jump far, fly like a sky diver
If you’re gonna be singer then you better be rock star
If you’re gonna be a driver then you better drive a race car

Blooze

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2010, 07:30:04 AM »
That is it.  Hence my Leaderboard Sheets.

If you run a lap or make a pass that is less than your current top time, the time you have to see the results of the lap or pass is while menu item "RACE RESULTS" is showing.  If you view the replay even, you have lost it.  It is kind of a pain really, but thems how you get crumbled cookies...

Cookies!

I have some Mint Oreos in the kitchen, be back in a sec...

;D $
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Open2nd

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2010, 09:20:13 AM »
The lack of a local leaderboard is curious, but I often wonder what that favorites board is for..  It basically isolates your best time if that's all it does.  If you've not seen it, toggle through the leaderboards by pressing X I believe, and there's one called favorites or some such that is just your fastest...

Tonka Crash

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2010, 10:55:42 AM »
The lack of a local leaderboard is curious, but I often wonder what that favorites board is for..  It basically isolates your best time if that's all it does.  If you've not seen it, toggle through the leaderboards by pressing X I believe, and there's one called favorites or some such that is just your fastest...

Favorites don't have to be in your friends list.  For example, you could track down gamertags for the T10 employees set them as favorites and see how you compare against the developers. 
GT: Tonka Crash  Forza Blog

Open2nd

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2010, 11:04:22 AM »
Hmm, so its a connection with the storefront favorites system?  Is that the only way to add favorites, through the SF?

BarbecuePete

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2010, 11:34:21 AM »
I think you can do it from the leaderboards as well, select the person you want to add, hit A / Y (?) and it brings up the menu where you can see their favourites, storefront.. etc. and I'm sure there is an option there to add that person to your favourites list too...

Extra smokey.... now with no assists!

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Open2nd

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2010, 10:25:15 PM »
Nice, thanks. :)

Blooze

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2010, 04:35:47 AM »
Our buddy "Stank" (PureStankonia) pointed out to me that the SEAT SuperCup couldn't make class and follow the specs.  And by Golly!  He's right!  Nothing but slipshod investigation and poor assumptions on my part.  The car comes damn near setup for you and I had built it quite a while ago.  At 24xx lbs, I thought it already had all the weight reduction it could stand.  Anyway.  The seat is still legal, just get it to B500 anyway you can.  Which means you won't be having to buy the Race Weight Reduction.

Sorry about that...

 :-\  $
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barumba

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2010, 02:06:30 PM »
Today's best effort in the Pinball Rally, in the Volvo C30.
Up           312.296
Down       317.701
Combined 629.997
At one point, after about my tenth restart, my chuckles turned to...well, the "ch" was replaced with an "f". LOL
No matter, lots-o-fun!
If you’re gonna jump then jump far, fly like a sky diver
If you’re gonna be singer then you better be rock star
If you’re gonna be a driver then you better drive a race car

barumba

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2010, 10:40:56 AM »
Blooze, et al, if you don't mind, I built a legal SEAT '07 Cupra to B500. She started her life as a D class. After a few practice runs I was able to get within a few seconds of the Illegal version in the challenge. Will probably do better with a bit of time.
I'd like any comments, good bad or indifferent.
Thanks in advance.

Here's the build.
Eng and Power, Sport Cams, rest stock
Platform and Handling, full race, including cage and weight redux
Drive train, full race
Tires and Rims, slicks, 245/35R18 Fr and Rr, Volk RE30 Rims
Aero, Forza Fr and Rr.

2451#, 57% Fr
270 Hp at 6400
233 Tq at 2600
RL at 7000

The Tune as follows:
Tire px 29 fr-30 rr
Gears FD 4.60, 2.89, 2.02, 1.47,1.13,.92, .73
Camber Fr -0.7, Rr -0.6
Toe Fr 0.0 Rr -0.1
Caster 4.8
ARB Fr 19.5, Rr 18.9
Springs Fr 566.5 Rr 555
Rebound Fr 6.2, Rr 6.1
Bump Fr 4.4, Rr 4.3
Aero Fr 37, Rr 175
Brakes Balance 49%
Pressure 90%
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 08:10:04 PM by barumba »
If you’re gonna jump then jump far, fly like a sky diver
If you’re gonna be singer then you better be rock star
If you’re gonna be a driver then you better drive a race car

Silvo 1981

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2010, 06:42:07 AM »
Barumba, I am no expert but I will gladly offer you a few suggestions to see if they are any of any help to you.

The first thing I work on is the alignment and even heat across the tyres. The toe numbers for your setup seem to be setup more for a FR than an FF car. Cars with a tendancy to understeer respond well to a bit of positive front toe. For the Clio I settled on +0.2/0.0. I did try +0.2/+0.1 but I found the rear end coming round a bit too quickly on certain corners and kept clipping the barriers. The setup you have gone for is more commonly used for FR cars although it is quite a mild setting perhaps -0.2 or -0.3 rear are more common to keep the back end in check.

The next thing I would try is messing with the caster. I find this is quite a good setting to play with to fine tune the steering. I usually start with a figure of around 5.5 which I think I picked up from Feuerdogs Calculator but I find it is a good starting point. If I find that I am struggling to get the car round quickly enough before I can get on the gas then I usually up the figure by a couple of notches. If the car is getting round quite well but I am getting the nose a bit too far into the corner and correcting myself often on or around the exit then I tend to knock it down a notch or two. I find this setting very useful but I think some underestimate it from what I have read. It is quite a subtle difference so if you don't feel it try more drastic increases until you feel what's going on.

Your camber settings look about right but I always check these at the end of tinkering about with these type of settings. What I look for is similar amounts of difference in temperature between the front tyres and the rear tyres. On a circuit track the temperature on the outside wheel is hotter than the wheel on the inside. Then the inner wheel inside edge should be hotter than the outside edge by about 10-15 degrees. The outisde wheel should have a hotter outer edge than the inside edge also by about 10-15 degrees. The difference in temperature of the front wheels should be about the same as should the difference between the rear wheels.

I always try to get the heated pressure up to 32psi. I guess your heated figures are getting to around that.

I found Tskuba a good track to tune on for this challenge as it's twisty like Kaido but short enough so you can quickly see improvements in lap times. I also use the "test drive" under the upgrades menu so that you can alter these settings whilst driving without having to restart and warm your tyres. After I was happy on Tskuba I then started watching the end of the replays on Kaido after my good runs or looking at the telementry after I had buggered my runs up to see how the tyres were heating up and the pressures being reached. I found that I needed about -0.1 more on the front than I did at Tskuba which makes some sense because it is probably a bit twistier. The rear camber was ok but I think I played with the pressure a little bit too.

I would also try different engine upgrades to see if you can find the best upgrade to apply. I don't fully understand the engine upgrades but I play about with the parts and watch the clock when unsure. I know the cams mess with the rev range and for some tracks/cars this can prodcue good results. As I understand it the higher reving is good for high speed tracks or tracks where the car is using the top end of the engine for large proportions such as speedway or Maple Valley where there are not many low speed corners. What we are looking for in this challenge is good acceleration at low speed and top end is less significant.

I might be off the mark but torque not hp is important here and cams might not be the best upgrade to choose. I started out by avoiding cams for the above reason but pretty much any of the other engine upgrades are good for torque. From memory I ran low 60s at Tskuba full. Then I took those upgrades off added the cams and compared times to see the difference. It didn't feel as good to me and I think the time was about the same. I then tried a few of the turbos to see if those proved any good. When I added the cetrifugal supercharger my time came down to 59.5 and I was pretty consistently under or around the 60 mark. I didn't bother to mess with any of the other upgrades after this as I knew it was going to be about as good as I was going to get from this car.

I hope some of that is of use and I'm sorry if any of that is a bit basic for you. I thought while I was at it I might as well cover all the aspects of alignment and tyre pressure that I consider key to getting a good tune.
GT - Silvo 1981

Blooze

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2010, 06:43:12 AM »
Well Barumba - not too bad.  Different, but not too bad.  I came within 2 tenths of my personal best for the class on MVS with your CUPRA.  And without getting too intense about it, I set the following middle of the pack times on the Mountain:

NUH: 294.728
NDH: 285.451

But my thoughts are that the tune could be better.  The car had a tendency to be a little pushy and I had to be careful about not being late when setting up turns, and give them extra space to get the weight right.   But, it performed so I can't really say anything is wrong.

What I have decided to do is re-Toon the thing My way with explanation - stem to stern, then see if it performs any better, and send it to you to see what you think of it.  Then you can make decisions on what is better and what you may think, "...that Blooze is all wet..."

Gears
  • FD = 3.96
  • 1-6= 2.62   1.91   1.53   1.28   1.09   0.90


Setup
Wt Bias - SWR
50.00%
47.50%
Parameter     Front     Rear    
Tires
27.5
29
Camber
-1.1
-0.9
Toe
0.2
0.1
Caster
5.0
ARB +80%
16.3
16.3
Springs 0%
570
570
Height
6.7
6.8
Rebound
8.2
8.1
Bump
4.0
4.4
Aero 0%
75
137
Brakes
48
104
Front Diff
26
0
Rear Diff
na
na
Torque
na

On the Tires (Tyres?) and alignment.  The reason I ran it on Maple Valley is because I check all my tires after 5 or 6 laps on MVS.  With the psi set at 29 for the fronts, by the 4th lap they were at 33.5 psi.  With 31-32 considered optimum, that was too high.  I have found settings of 27.5 F, and 29 R to stay within a workable range better.

I was especially suspect of your Camber settings, which seemed a bit low.  The tires, both front and rear were substantially hotter on the outsides in short order.  The general school of thought is that this is not good.  It indicates positive camber, and zero to slightly negative is considered best.  My settings for the Camber are -1.1 F, and -.9 R.

There are a couple two or three over-all 80,000 ft types of things that I am trying to accomplish when I tune a car.

First, I want it to rotate around itself with a minimum of tail wagging.  I have found that this is best accomplished when the Weight Bias is 50% or as close to it as possible.  Hence the Bias of 50% for this car.  The SWR was 51.67 - a bit high for a production car so the 46.5 is a move towards the lower end of the scale.

I don't like the cars to go sliding and skittering about, that is another reason for the lowered SWR.  And even tho I added an additional 80% to the ARB, they are still half of the original stock settings.

(I see that Phil has responded to this as well and that we are repeating each other somewhat)

Another thing that I always try to do, specially in lower powered vehicles is protect the Torque.  Camshafts don't do that.  The Torque/Hp ratio goes from .929 to .863 with the two cam upgrades.  They cost 40 Pi and provide 32 Hp and raise the power band but seriously hamper the car's ability to work in low rpm ranges.  You find yourself having to downshift to pick the rpms up to get back into the power band

Such was the case with my testing.  I was able to take the top spot with the car on the downhill, but kept losing to my ghost in the twisties near the top of the Up Hill because it couldn't pull a couple of those corners in 2nd or 3rd.

Here's the new numbers...
NUH: 292.693
NDH: 284.050

That's almost 4 seconds...

I guess I will leave it to your questions if you have any.

:) $

The Leaderboard is uptodate at this point.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 08:15:17 AM by Blooze »
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Silvo 1981

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2010, 07:33:56 AM »
Well at least we're saying the same kind of things Blooze.  ;D

Alignment is key then work on the handling. No point fighting the understeer with the Springs/ARB/Damping then finding out the reason the front isn't gripping was your tyres (tires?(!)) not gripping correctly.
GT - Silvo 1981

Blooze

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Re: New Forza; New Year; First Challenge
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2010, 08:04:07 AM »
LOL - we did it again...

Getting the tires to track and not slide is pretty important - with the outside tires going to positive camber, that gets hard to do.

:) $
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