Author Topic: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?  (Read 2654 times)

fndrbndr

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2009, 08:15:20 AM »
Hm....pretty cool. 

Once again, thanks for posting writeups on this.  I haven't contributed much to the conversation, but it's enjoyable watching a project develop, and I'm learning a good bit in the process.
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Drift2XL

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2009, 07:38:09 PM »
I've figured a slight problem. Hose clamps and square tubes don't make great, leak-free joints.

All the pressure from the clamps are on the corners, not the sides. 

Still thinking about it.

Squeezing a tube down with a vise down to a square shape would work....but I'm not keen on that idea. Runner taper is one of the things I'm keeping my eye on. Having too much reduces reflective ram tuning. Going from square to round really worsenes the problem.

I have the process in my head as how to fab it. Even with a fully welded runner to plenum.

Also, I'm going to go out and get the intake gasket after this weeks payday. And transcribe it into a print and see about getting it burned out on some drop material.

And I'm going to call my old buddy who had a Scout II and see if he still has it. Hopefully it has the 304. I believe it was a V8. If it's still there and still not running, I can't see why he wouldn't let me R&D on it. If not I'll check out some J-yards to se if I can pick a manifold up cheap. If I went with the fully welded, square tube unit, I would really need a set a jig up off it to set the right width. I want it to be a bolt in part.

And about the Turbo-4 IH. A half a manifold would work perfectly. I just wonder how rare that engine is.
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RenoWrench

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2009, 08:04:09 PM »
Pretty interesting project I've kind of been thinking along similar lines for both my Beetle and my A108





In my case the hardware part of the problem is pretty simple.  There are a bunch of kits that have been produced in the last couple of years for the Beetle and the Van's LA small block is very similar (aka almost identical) to a Magnum V8 and I think a current intake from something like a Durango is pretty close to fitting. 

I'm wondering what your going to be using to control the whole she-bang?  I came across this site while cruising around a few months ago. 

MegaSquirt

Looks like an incredibly capable DIY setup and the forums are full of practical information.

IMADreamer over at Exodus Racing spoke really highly of it and I think he might be using it on his Camaro race car?

Now all I need is the cash and time to put it all together.   :'(


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bimmerlovere39

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2009, 09:21:46 PM »
I think the winner of Targa Newfoundland last year used MegaSquirt
It is highly likely that the above post was produced with a drippy jowl.

Hoplee

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2009, 03:43:38 PM »
Sorry I've been away from this for a few days! I've finished moving and now I'm taking care of canceling services/updating adresses to reflect the change of scenery. I'll be getting back into this a bit over the next few days as I set up internet access at the new place and get organized.

@Drift, I've still got that extra 304 intake manifold I can ship to you if I get an address...

GENERAL UPDATE:
1) The Scout is currently 2WD only! (long story, I'll fill y'all in soon! The good news is that it's still perfectly okay to drive.)
 ;)
2) The torpedo lights and old aluminum luggage rack have been removed, She now makes A LOT less noise on the highway!
3) Found and secured a usable spare 31x10.50 AT tire on an old 5 on 5.5 chromed steel Bronco wheel. One more problem solved!

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Drift2XL

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2009, 07:15:44 PM »
Reno, What size is the Dodge. I figure a SB.

I got a couple SB Mopars under my belt. Including putting Magnum heads on a stroker 360.

If you were looking for a true bolt in, that wasn't it. The heads lined up and fit, but the pushrod windows had to clearanced. And instead of a Magnum intake, they used an Edlebrock for the old heads. Had to weld up and re- drill the mounting hole to fit the Magnums.

Still it made over 400 lb-ft and a relatively smooth 360HP with only two pulls on the dyno. Not bad from 414 that was made up of basically leftovers. The only thing ordered was the Keith Craft stroker kit.

Still have nightmares about cleaning that block. Yecchh!
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Everything else are children's games that men play
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RenoWrench

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2009, 08:50:27 PM »
The Dodge is a 318 with a 2 barrel Holley (I think that was the stock setup, at least it looks like it I'm much more experienced with VWs so you would probably know more than me). 

Right now I'm in very preliminary stages of planning.  I've got a ghetto cherry bomb setup installed for diagnostic purposes since the old muffler looked like this.



At this point my goal is to have a nice runner within the next couple of months and go from their.  First order of business is pulling the manifold and making sure everything is nice and clean (I have a nagging suspicion that it is pretty coked up from running rich and not running very often). 

I got most of my information from this site and right now it is mostly just theoretical (it is still way to cold to be working on a car outside)

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/318.html

Eventually, I'll have EFI and CDI on both the van and the beetle.  Most likely I'll work on the van first since the beetle already gets 22-25mpg around town.  I'm hoping I can get the van up to 16-18mpg on the highway (after it is all together), which I think is reasonable since my old '74 Wagoneer got between 14 and 16 mpg (and that was with a 401 and quadratrac!). 

As I dig into it I might have to hit you up, everyone I know is all about Ford or Chevy with no Mopar knowledge what so ever.  That being said adapting a Magnum intake doesn't sound like too much trouble, and the intake noise might be a little quieter which is a concern since the motor sits between the front seats.

Anyway, enough hijacking, now back to Hoplee's incredibly cool Scout project.


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Hoplee

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2009, 02:54:08 AM »
The 318 is actually a pretty underated piece. I had one in a 73 Plymouth named "Lolita". I sounded great, motivated the car nicely, and was the only part of the car that never really broke! The wiring harness caught fire behind the fuse block, the axle tube left the differential pumpkin for greener pastures -MORE THAN ONCE, etc etc.

Here's the deal:

You can pick up a running engine and/or donor vehicle with MPFI that would bolt up to a Mopar bell housing. Do not rebuild your 318! Swap is a newer one that already has MPFI, modern ignition, and probably a set of MUCH nicer heads! A rolled Durango, wrecked Ram, Full-Size Van with a bad history... you get the idea. If you can dismantle a car in less than a month (think SWAZALL and/or a quick phone call to that guy in the paper that buys junk cars) and you can negotiate with your S.O., you can take what you need and maybe some nicer seats, then sell/scrap what you can. It shouldn't cost more than a couple hundred for parts and your labor is free, right?  ;)

The interesting thing about this thread is that the above solution doesn't work for an International 304 SV series engine. International discontinued the Light Line after 1980. That means we need to improvise, and that makes this interesting! ;D
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 02:56:27 AM by Hoplee »
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Hoplee

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2009, 03:12:42 AM »
What's the solution to square vs. round runners? Got an idea on sealing? ???
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Hoplee

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2009, 03:01:19 PM »
Check out this link:

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/log-c.htm

lots of good information on early home-brew intake manifolds. I've never heard the term "Log Style Intake", but it's very similar to what I have in mind for this project. The information presented is for multiple carburetor set-ups, but MPFI would be even easier since yuou don't have to worry about multiple carb linkages and all the headaches that go with balancing between 2 and 6 carbs!

Here's another good link with info about adapting a manifold from one v8 onto another:

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/alternate-c.htm

interesting!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 03:04:32 PM by Hoplee »
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RenoWrench

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2009, 04:11:36 PM »
That is some great info Hoplee. 

I'm still a little confused about your square tubing round hose problem.  Maybe I'm just not picturing it right.  You can't cap the square runner and then drill and tap it for an AN fitting like this?



Are the runners square because they'er easier to fabricate when they're square (not mitering etc.)


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Hoplee

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2009, 07:11:12 PM »
The intake port profiles in the heads themselves is square-ish. Designers use square runners/ports because they have to deal with the limitations of mass production die-casting processes AND the various problems encountered when dodging the moving parts of the valve-train itself.  ;)
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RenoWrench

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2009, 07:37:54 PM »
Got ya.  I think I was confusing runner with fuel rail , I knew is was something I just wasn't visualizing properly. 

I am still a little confused about the whole MPFI setup.  Can't you simply modify a current carbed intake and modify a carb to control airflow and throttle position?



http://www.customefis.com/portefi.html


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Drift2XL

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2009, 01:36:23 PM »
Yeah you can Reno.

But thats too easy.  ;D

There are bolt in Central (or theottle body) FI systems out there. But the multiport design gives the best (argueable) atomazation since its right beside the valve. Plus there is no need to worry about having a puddle area in the runner for fuel. Check out a first gen 924 engine for that. The early Bosch FI was a constant fuel feed system.

That intake you posted has pedistals in the cast that can be machined to accept an injector. The IH mani doesn't. And welding cast iron is a rather touch and go procedure. More often than not it results in both parts being scrapped. The high carbon content of cast, as well as the internal stresses the carbon clusters make, doesn't make that operation to appealing. 

The way I understood it, you want to basically make a set of velocity stacks that bolt to the heads and then connect them to a common plenum with silicone hoses. Basically I would have to make it out of tube and "square" the ends by clamping it in a vise. I can get it close but there would be a significant amount of filler rod put in it to cover the holes. Not to mention a possiblity of uneven flow. With the fairly abrupt change from square to round, the pressure wave bouncing back from the now closed valve would have its momentum reduced signifcantly. (Think of how sound comes out of a tuba bell.) Thus reducing the effectiveness of optimum runner length.

The problem with the square vs round port is rather simple. The more velocity of the incoming air charge, the better the low lift cylinder filling, the better the low end torque. With a round port the best flow (highest pressure) is dead center. Right where the valve stem is, and the fattest part of the valve. With a square port the high pressure flow area is a bit more spread out and can give a "window effect" around the head and stem of the valve.

In a race head you want as much window as you can. Air goes straight through. I've actually stuck a light in the spark plug hole of a Truck engine and could see it shine past the open valve and up the entire runner. Check out the intake port on an GM LS series, very tall retangular port (to enlarge the window area). The LS engines are the culmination of 50 years of R&D on the pushrod V8. Everything that really works is on it.


The best example in reference is the Tunnel Port 302. In 1968, Ford took the tunnel port idea from the Grand National (NASCAR) Tunnel Port 427 and put it on the 302 for the SCCA Trans Am Mustangs. The big problem was that the design had great top end HP. But much less torque compared to a high port FE. But then these engines were built for Daytona and 'Dega.

The season was a trainwreck. The little 302 had no usable torque range. The drivers were regularly spinning them up to 8 & 9K just to get enough power to pull the car out of the corners. In a time before advanced metallurgy, you can imagine they didn't last long. More often than not, more Mustangs DNF'ed due to engine failure than finished.

The big FE had enough CID to pull massive amounts of air to get a usable torque range until the high flow design reached its operating range. The Windsor didn't and had to result to extremely high engine speeds to stay competitive. Square vs. round, square wins.

I know too much history, but if you don't laern from it, you're doomed to repeat it.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 01:52:01 PM by Drift2XL »
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Everything else are children's games that men play
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Hoplee

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Re: Tubing based MPFI intake for Scout?
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2009, 01:57:11 PM »
thanks for the history lesson, D!

Check out these pics. They're close to what I'm thinking, but I'm thinking that square runners might be better than round. That way, the intake runner profile is consistent from the plenum to the head.

http://www.lakeheaders.com/UFabIntakes.html



Also, try to imagine a log style intake with the logs joined at the front of the engine. The GRM sucker Vette used something like what I have in mind for part of the turbo system they built:

http://www.cheaparral.com/Build.html



« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 01:59:10 PM by Hoplee »
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